Mark Kitto and family; Photo: Eric Leleu
Death and taxes. You know how the saying goes. I’d like to add a third certainty: you’ll never become Chinese, no matter how hard you try, or want to, or think you ought to. I wanted to be Chinese, once. I don’t mean I wanted to wear a silk jacket and cotton slippers, or a Mao suit and cap and dye my hair black and proclaim that blowing your nose in a handkerchief is disgusting. I wanted China to be the place where I made a career and lived my life. For the past 16 years it has been precisely that. But now I will be leaving.
I won’t be rushing back either. I have fallen out of love, woken from my China Dream. “But China is an economic miracle: record number of people lifted out of poverty in record time… year on year ten per cent growth… exports… imports… infrastructure… investment…saved the world during the 2008 financial crisis…” The superlatives roll on. We all know them, roughly.
Don’t you think, with all the growth and infrastructure, the material wealth, let alone saving the world like some kind of financial whizz James Bond, that China would be a happier and healthier country? At least better than the country emerging from decades of stultifying state control that I met and fell in love with in 1986 when I first came here as a student? I don’t think it is.
When I arrived in Beijing for the second year of my Chinese degree course, from London University’s School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), China was communist. Compared to the west, it was backward. There were few cars on the streets, thousands of bicycles, scant streetlights, and countless donkey carts that moved at the ideal speed for students to clamber on board for a ride back to our dormitories. My “responsible teacher” (a cross between a housemistress and a parole officer) was a fearsome former Red Guard nicknamed Dragon Hou. The basic necessities of daily life: food, drink, clothes and a bicycle, cost peanuts. We lived like kings—or we would have if there had been anything regal to spend our money on. But there wasn’t. One shop, the downtown Friendship Store, sold coffee in tins.
We had the time of our lives, as students do, but it isn’t the pranks and adventures I remember most fondly, not from my current viewpoint, the top of a mountain called Moganshan, 100 miles west of Shanghai, where I have lived for the past seven years.
If I had to choose one word to describe China in the mid-1980s it would be optimistic. A free market of sorts was in its early stages. With it came the first inflation China had experienced in 35 years. People were actually excited by that. It was a sign of progress, and a promise of more to come. Underscoring the optimism was a sense of social obligation for which communism was at least in part responsible, generating either the fantasy that one really could be a selfless socialist, or unity in the face of the reality that there was no such thing.
In 1949 Mao had declared from the top of Tiananmen gate in Beijing: “The Chinese people have stood up.” In the mid-1980s, at long last, they were learning to walk and talk.
One night in January 1987 I watched them, chanting and singing as they marched along snow-covered streets from the university quarter towards Tiananmen Square. It was the first of many student demonstrations that would lead to the infamous “incident” in June 1989.
One man was largely responsible for the optimism of those heady days: Deng Xiaoping, rightly known as the architect of modern China. Deng made China what it is today. He also ordered the tanks into Beijing in 1989, of course, and there left a legacy that will haunt the Chinese Communist Party to its dying day. That “incident,” as the Chinese call it—when they have to, which is seldom since the Party has done such a thorough job of deleting it from public memory—coincided with my final exams. My classmates and I wondered if we had spent four years of our lives learning a language for nothing.
It did not take long for Deng to put his country back on the road he had chosen. He persuaded the world that it would be beneficial to forgive him for the Tiananmen “incident” and engage with China, rather than treating her like a pariah. He also came up with a plan to ensure nothing similar happened again, at least on his watch. The world obliged and the Chinese people took what he offered. Both have benefited financially.
When I returned to China in 1996, to begin the life and career I had long dreamed about, I found the familiar air of optimism, but there was a subtle difference: a distinct whiff of commerce in place of community. The excitement was more like the eager anticipation I felt once I had signed a deal (I began my China career as a metals trader), sure that I was going to bank a profit, rather than the thrill that something truly big was about to happen.
A deal had been struck. Deng had promised the Chinese people material wealth they hadn’t known for centuries on the condition that they never again asked for political change. The Party said: “Trust us and everything will be all right.”
Twenty years later, everything is not all right.
I must stress that this indictment has nothing to do with the trajectory of my own China career, which went from metal trading to building a multi-million dollar magazine publishing business that was seized by the government in 2004, followed by retreat to this mountain hideaway of Moganshan where my Chinese wife and I have built a small business centred on a coffee shop and three guesthouses, which in turn has given me enough anecdotes and gossip to fill half a page of Prospect every month for several years. That our current business could suffer the same fate as my magazines if the local government decides not to renew our short-term leases (for which we have to beg every three years) does, however, contribute to my decision not to remain in China.
During the course of my magazine business, my state-owned competitor (enemy is more accurate) told me in private that they studied every issue I produced so they could learn from me. They appreciated my contribution to Chinese media. They proceeded to do everything in their power to destroy me. In Moganshan our local government masters send messages of private thanks for my contribution to the resurrection of the village as a tourist destination, but also clearly state that I am an exception to their unwritten rule that foreigners (who originally built the village in the early 1900s) are not welcome back to live in it, and are only allowed to stay for weekends.
But this article is not personal. I want to give you my opinion of the state of China, based on my time living here, in the three biggest cities and one tiny rural community, and explain why I am leaving it.
* * *
Modern day mainland Chinese society is focused on one object: money and the acquisition thereof. The politically correct term in China is “economic benefit.” The country and its people, on average, are far wealthier than they were 25 years ago. Traditional family culture, thanks to 60 years of self-serving socialism followed by another 30 of the “one child policy,” has become a “me” culture. Except where there is economic benefit to be had, communities do not act together, and when they do it is only to ensure equal financial compensation for the pollution, or the government-sponsored illegal land grab, or the poisoned children. Social status, so important in Chinese culture and more so thanks to those 60 years of communism, is defined by the display of wealth. Cars, apartments, personal jewellery, clothing, pets: all must be new and shiny, and carry a famous foreign brand name. In the small rural village where we live I am not asked about my health or that of my family, I am asked how much money our small business is making, how much our car cost, our dog.
The trouble with money of course, and showing off how much you have, is that you upset the people who have very little. Hence the Party’s campaign to promote a “harmonious society,” its vast spending on urban and rural beautification projects, and reliance on the sale of “land rights” more than personal taxes.
Once you’ve purchased the necessary baubles, you’ll want to invest the rest somewhere safe, preferably with a decent return—all the more important because one day you will have to pay your own medical bills and pension, besides overseas school and college fees. But there is nowhere to put it except into property or under the mattress. The stock markets are rigged, the banks operate in a way that is non-commercial, and the yuan is still strictly non-convertible. While the privileged, powerful and well-connected transfer their wealth overseas via legally questionable channels, the remainder can only buy yet more apartments or thicker mattresses. The result is the biggest property bubble in history, which when it pops will sound like a thousand firework accidents.
In brief, Chinese property prices have rocketed; owning a home has become unaffordable for the young urban workers; and vast residential developments continue to be built across the country whose units are primarily sold as investments, not homes. If you own a property you are more than likely to own at least three. Many of our friends do. If you don’t own a property, you are stuck.
When the bubble pops, or in the remote chance that it deflates gradually, the wealth the Party gave the people will deflate too. The promise will have been broken. And there’ll still be the medical bills, pensions and school fees. The people will want their money back, or a say in their future, which amounts to a political voice. If they are denied, they will cease to be harmonious.
Meanwhile, what of the ethnic minorities and the factory workers, the people on whom it is more convenient for the government to dispense overwhelming force rather than largesse? If an outburst of ethnic or labour discontent coincides with the collapse of the property market, and you throw in a scandal like the melamine tainted milk of 2008, or a fatal train crash that shows up massive, high level corruption, as in Wenzhou in 2011, and suddenly the harmonious society is likely to become a chorus of discontent.
How will the Party deal with that? How will it lead?
Unfortunately it has forgotten. The government is so scared of the people it prefers not to lead them.
In rural China, village level decisions that require higher authorisation are passed up the chain of command, sometimes all the way to Beijing, and returned with the note attached: “You decide.” The Party only steps to the fore where its power or personal wealth is under direct threat. The country is ruled from behind closed doors, a building without an address or a telephone number. The people in that building do not allow the leaders they appoint to actually lead. Witness Grandpa Wen, the nickname for the current, soon to be outgoing, prime minister. He is either a puppet and a clever bluff, or a man who genuinely wants to do the right thing. His proposals for reform (aired in a 2010 interview on CNN, censored within China) are good, but he will never be able to enact them, and he knows it.
To rise to the top you must be grey, with no strong views or ideas. Leadership contenders might think, and here I hypothesise, that once they are in position they can show their “true colours.” Too late they realise that will never be possible. As a publisher I used to deal with officials who listened to the people in one of the wings of that building. They always spoke as if there was a monster in the next room, one that cannot be named. It was “them” or “our leaders.” Once or twice they called it the “China Publishing Group.” No such thing exists. I searched hard for it. It is a chimera.
In that building are the people who, according to pundits, will be in charge of what they call the Chinese Century. “China is the next superpower,” we’re told. “Accept it. Deal with it.” How do you deal with a faceless leader, who when called upon to adjudicate in an international dispute sends the message: “You decide”?
It is often argued that China led the world once before, so we have nothing to fear. As the Chinese like to say, they only want to “regain their rightful position.” While there is no dispute that China was once the major world superpower, there are two fundamental problems with the idea that it should therefore regain that “rightful position.”
A key reason China achieved primacy was its size. As it is today, China was, and always will be, big. (China loves “big.” “Big” is good. If a Chinese person ever asks you what you think of China, just say “It’s big,” and they will be delighted.) If you are the biggest, and physical size matters as it did in the days before microchips, you tend to dominate. Once in charge the Chinese sat back and accepted tribute from their suzerain and vassal states, such as Tibet. If trouble was brewing beyond its borders that might threaten the security or interests of China itself, the troublemakers were set against each other or paid off.
The second reason the rightful position idea is misguided is that the world in which China was the superpower did not include the Americas, an enlightened Europe or a modern Africa. The world does not want to live in a Chinese century, just as much of it doesn’t like living in an American one. China, politically, culturally and as a society, is inward looking. It does not welcome intruders—unless they happen to be militarily superior and invade from the north, as did two imperial dynasties, the Yuan (1271-1368) and the Qing (1644-1911), who became more Chinese than the Chinese themselves. Moreover, the fates of the Mongols, who became the Yuan, and Manchu, who became the Qing, provide the ultimate deterrent: “Invade us and be consumed from the inside,” rather like the movie Alien. All non-Chinese are, to the Chinese, aliens, in a mildly derogatory sense. The polite word is “Outsider.” The Chinese are on “The Inside.” Like anyone who does not like what is going on outside—the weather, a loud argument, a natural disaster—the Chinese can shut the door on it. Maybe they’ll stick up a note: “Knock when you’ve decided how to deal with it.”
Leadership requires empathy, an ability to put yourself in your subordinate’s shoes. It also requires decisiveness and a willingness to accept responsibility. Believing themselves to be unique, the Chinese find it almost impossible to empathise. Controlled by people with conflicting interests, China’s government struggles to be decisive in domestic issues, let alone foreign ones. Witness the postponement of the leadership handover thanks to the Bo Xilai scandal. And the system is designed to make avoidance of responsibility a prerequisite before any major decision is taken. (I know that sounds crazy. It is meant to. It is true.)
A leader must also offer something more than supremacy. The current “world leader” offers the world the chance to be American and democratic, usually if they want to be, sometimes by force. The British empire offered freedom from slavery and a legal system, amongst other things. The Romans took grain from Egypt and redistributed it across Europe.
A China that leads the world will not offer the chance to be Chinese, because it is impossible to become Chinese. Nor is the Chinese Communist Party entirely averse to condoning slavery. It has encouraged its own people to work like slaves to produce goods for western companies, to earn the foreign currency that has fed its economic boom. (How ironic that the Party manifesto promised to kick the slave-driving foreigners out of China.) And the Party wouldn’t know a legal system if you swung the scales of justice under its metaphorical nose. (I was once a plaintiff in the Beijing High Court. I was told, off the record, that I had won my case. While my lawyer was on his way to collect the decision the judge received a telephone call. The decision was reversed.) As for resources extracted from Africa, they go to China.
There is one final reason why the world does not want to be led by China in the 21st century. The Communist Party of China has, from its very inception, encouraged strong anti-foreign sentiment. Fevered nationalism is one of its cornerstones. The Party’s propaganda arm created the term “one hundred years of humiliation” to define the period from the Opium Wars to the Liberation, when foreign powers did indeed abuse and coerce a weak imperial Qing government. The second world war is called the War of Resistance Against Japan. To speak ill of China in public, to award a Nobel prize to a Chinese intellectual, or for a public figure to have tea with the Dalai Lama, is to “interfere in China’s internal affairs” and “hurt the feelings of the Chinese people.” The Chinese are told on a regular basis to feel aggrieved at what foreigners have done to them, and the Party vows to exact vengeance on their behalf.
The alternative scenario to a world dominated by an aggrieved China is hardly less bleak and illustrates how China already dominates the world and its economy. That is the increasing likelihood that there will be upheaval in China within the next few years, sparked by that property crash. When it happens it will be sudden, like all such events. Sun Yat Sen’s 1911 revolution began when someone set off a bomb by accident. Some commentators say it will lead to revolution, or a collapse of the state. There are good grounds. Everything the Party does to fix things in the short term only makes matters worse in the long term by setting off property prices again. Take the recent cut in interest rates, which was done to boost domestic consumption, which won’t boost itself until the Party sorts out the healthcare system, which it hasn’t the money for because it has been invested in American debt, which it can’t sell without hurting the dollar, which would raise the value of the yuan and harm exports, which will shut factories and put people out of work and threaten social stability.
I hope the upheaval, when it comes, is peaceful, that the Party does not try to distract people by launching an attack on Taiwan or the Philippines. Whatever form it takes, it will bring to an end China’s record-breaking run of economic growth that has supposedly driven the world’s economy and today is seen as our only hope of salvation from recession.
* * *
Fear of violent revolution or domestic upheaval, with a significant proportion of that violence sure to be directed at foreigners, is not the main reason I am leaving China, though I shan’t deny it is one of them.
Apart from what I hope is a justifiable human desire to be part of a community and no longer be treated as an outsider, to run my own business in a regulated environment and not live in fear of it being taken away from me, and not to concern myself unduly that the air my family breathes and the food we eat is doing us physical harm, there is one overriding reason I must leave China. I want to give my children a decent education.
The domestic Chinese lower education system does not educate. It is a test centre. The curriculum is designed to teach children how to pass them. In rural China, where we have lived for seven years, it is also an elevation system. Success in exams offers a passport to a better life in the big city. Schools do not produce well-rounded, sociable, self-reliant young people with inquiring minds. They produce winners and losers. Winners go on to college or university to take “business studies.” Losers go back to the farm or the local factory their parents were hoping they could escape.
There is little if any sport or extracurricular activity. Sporty children are extracted and sent to special schools to learn how to win Olympic gold medals. Musically gifted children are rammed into the conservatories and have all enthusiasm and joy in their talent drilled out of them. (My wife was one of the latter.)
And then there is the propaganda. Our daughter’s very first day at school was spent watching a movie called, roughly, “How the Chinese people, under the firm and correct leadership of the Party and with the help of the heroic People’s Liberation Army, successfully defeated the Beichuan Earthquake.” Moral guidance is provided by mythical heroes from communist China’s recent past, such as Lei Feng, the selfless soldier who achieved more in his short lifetime than humanly possible, and managed to write it all down in a diary that was miraculously “discovered” on his death.
The pressure makes children sick. I speak from personal experience. To score under 95 per cent is considered failure. Bad performance is punished. Homework, which consists mostly of practice test papers, takes up at least one day of every weekend. Many children go to school to do it in the classroom. I have seen them trooping in at 6am on Sundays. In the holidays they attend special schools for extra tuition, and must do their own school’s homework for at least a couple of hours every day to complete it before term starts again. Many of my local friends abhor the system as much as I do, but they have no choice. I do. I am lucky.
An option is to move back to a major Chinese city and send our children to an expensive international school—none of which offer boarding—but I would be worried about pollution, and have to get a proper job, most likely something to do with foreign business to China, which my conscience would find hard.
I pity the youth of China that cannot attend the international schools in the cities (which have to set limits on how many Chinese children they accept) and whose parents cannot afford to send them to school overseas, or do not have access to the special schools for the Party privileged. China does not nurture and educate its youth in a way that will allow them to become the leaders, inventors and innovators of tomorrow, but that is the intention. The Party does not want free thinkers who can solve its problems. It still believes it can solve them itself, if it ever admits it has a problem in the first place. The only one it openly acknowledges, ironically, is its corruption. To deny that would be impossible.
The Party does include millions of enlightened officials who understand that something must be done to avert a crisis. I have met some of them. If China is to avoid upheaval then it is up to them to change the Party from within, but they face a long uphill struggle, and time is short.
I have also encountered hundreds of well-rounded, wise Chinese people with a modern world view, people who could, and would willingly, help their motherland face the issues that are growing into state-shaking problems. It is unlikely they will be given the chance. I fear for some of them who might ask for it, just as my classmates and I feared for our Chinese friends while we took our final exams at SOAS in 1989.
I read about Ai Weiwei, Chen Guangchen and Liu Xiaobo on Weibo, the closely monitored Chinese equivalent of Twitter and Facebook, where a post only has to be up for a few minutes to go viral. My wife had never heard of them until she started using the site. The censors will never completely master it. (The day my wife began reading Weibo was also the day she told me she had overcome her concerns about leaving China for the UK.) There are tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of mainland Chinese who “follow” such people too, and there must be countless more like them in person, trying in their small way to make China a better place. One day they will prevail. That’ll be a good time to become Chinese. It might even be possible.
Why I’m sticking with China: Marjorie Perry offers a contrary view of China in her response to Kitto’s piece
Criticising China: In a follow-up to this article, Mark Kitto discusses the reactions it elicited
Chairman who?: Most Chinese are indifferent to their new leaders, says Gabriel Corsetti
China’s new intelligentsia: Despite the global interest in the rise of China, no one is paying much attention to its ideas and who produces them. Yet China has a surprisingly lively intellectual class whose ideas may prove a serious challenge to western liberal hegemony, says Mark Leonard
The Key to China: To grasp the new spirit of this country, Julia Lovell recommends this fresh, contrarian short fiction
China: at war with its history: The Chinese leadership refused to commemorate the centenary of the overthrow of the last imperial dynasty. Obsessed with survival, will it allow challenges to its version of the past? Isabel Hilton reports
Sifan
A Chinese living abroad: Democracy is not just a “US value”, it is a universal aspiration of all peoples. Even the Communist Party believe in it, as you can see from the constitution of the PRC party-state:
Article 34. All citizens of the People’s Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of nationality, race, sex, occupation, family background, religious belief, education, property status, or length of residence, except persons deprived of political rights according to law.
Article 35. Citizens of the People’s Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.
katia
Yes, they have it in their constitution.
But it does not mean they believe it and it does not mean that they act according to it.
FYI. CCCP (communist Russia) also had these things in their constitution. And one can hardly call them “democrats”
Joshua
To be fair, on the topic of fevered nationalism, China fears the West as much as the West fears her.
Just look at the U.S. strategic encirclement of China, from Japan, S.Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, Vietnam and India.
Compare that to how the U.S. reacted when Russia decided to plant missiles in Cuba.
Did you just mentioned “anti-foreign” sentiment?
Pulseguy
Josh…Thank you for your interesting comment. I’ve always wondered how India came to be placed where it was, so close to China. Now I know. The US did it.
Keith
Does the US have bases in Vietnam?
Outbound
I’m not sure if it was built but a few years ago the Vietnam government did invite the US to build a submarine base on an island in a maritime region disputed by China and Vietnam.
Patrick Fitzgerald
it is in their DNA for Chinese to hate Westerners and Chinese have a gift for trickery. I awoke from my Chinese nightmare too … after spending 4.5 years among these selfish racist people.
Waiguoren
Mr. Patrick, what we have here is a circular argument. IS IT “in their DNA for Chinese to [be a] selfish racist people”? The argument might fair better by replacing DNA with “Marxist/Maoist propaganda,” which, of course, is not “made in China.” The very notion of “race” as discussed in contemporary China is a byproduct of the decline of the West.
wych
What a stupid comment. To claim that it’s in the DNA of Chinese people to hate Westerners is itself “racist”.
Hai Dian
In all fairness, China is very nice to people like you, chinese opened their arms to welcome your arrival, helped you settle and learned the way around, etc. Being a Chinese who used to live in U.S for almost 10 years, i can say, China, for foreigners, is so much easier than U.S!
with 1.3 billion chinese living in China, i hope 100-200m so called elite chinese immigate to other countries, we 1.1-1.2 billion leftovers will simply just do fine. Western media/press just want to highlight the darksides of the Chinese society, but guess what? ordinary people make or break this country, not the elites.
go back to where you come from and settle there, no need to come back to China, let us all have peace in mind.
ping
Hai Dian,
You’ve just shown what Mark was saying about Chinese, treating all others as intruders, in other words, not able to accept differences.
Sang Kaili
I completely agree with Ping’s criticism of Hai Dian’s (reference to ?? district of Beijing? Perhaps you are a university student?) divisive and stereotypical response to this article. Instead of attacking it entirely on its merits, Hai Dian chose instead to focus on the author’s identity as a “foreigner” versus “Chinese,” ending her/his diatribe with the hateful and unnecessary ad hominem plea to just go home if the author doesn’t like the argument s/he is making.
This is exactly a case in point of the author’s assertion that to many Chinese, the world is simplistically divided into “us” and “them” rather than a colorful and complex mix of differing individuals. Before a large proportion of individuals in Chinese society recognize this as the intellectual roadblock it is, the problem is here to stay. Of course, if would-be immigrants continue to find China too distasteful for permanent residence, the problem probably won’t be solved too quickly
.
Lord Koos
Actually, elites can break a country quite easily. Check your history books.
SBD
To Hai Dian
In reply to the End of your comment..
go back to where you come from and settle there, no need to come back to China, let us all have peace in mind..
How would you feel if by chance all the Chinese people who reside in western countries
would be ask to go back to China and give the people of those western countries a peace of mind. I wish to remind you that there are tousands and tousnads of Chinese
( I happen to know many of them ) who left China by ways of marrying a foreigner for love but they could never make it in China with earing of 2000rmb a month. We wstern countries support your Chinese citizens. Giving them money. education. health for free.
What do you give the foriegners in yiour country ? You are talking a lot of rubbish. Think before you say things.
dan
that’s ridiculous. You act as if you are assimilated 100% when you are a asian living in the US. People who are “not white” are still given way less opportunities in jobs.
If you move down south in the US racism is still rampant. IE. if you are not one of the local, you will never belong.
This is how human operates, not just in china
Jennifer
Actually, the opening statement was that foreigners were welcomed with open arms. This was not a response indicating that all foreigners should go home. Furthermore, if you don’t know all of the local customs and etiquette, why would you want people to believe you are a local? In my country (not China) we also see foreigners as, quite obviously, foreigners. That doesn’t mean we aren’t welcoming to them. I can only doubt the intelligence of someone who thinks they won’t be seen as a foreigner when in fact they are one.
militz
Your answer proves once again what most of us Westerners see about chinese: brainwashed, racists and totally dismissive to anything that comes from the West.
ed
No, the truth is that you as a Westerner think, that you should be able to behave in China any way you want; while you would certainly never give the same right to a Chinese living in your country.
Fran
Kitto’s comparison of the spirit of hope in 1980s China with the cynical money-first mindset since the mid-1990s there resonates with my observations. Knowing that the economic and political system is rigged in favor of the Party’s authoritarian control there really dampens one’s enthusiasm for long-term residence there. Finally, the whole idea of an “American Century” is grossly overblown, as the world has always been multi-polar and shows no chance of morphing into an empire controlled by one government; the idea of a coming “Chinese Century” is no less fatuous.
Kastus
Chinese. I am with you!
The West just fears you because if The West would be on your place as rising Superpower it no doubt conquere the world and dictate its will.
Thats what they wait from you. And fear.
I know you are better
Sponge cakes
The difference is that Cuba was installing Soviet weapons,or intended to install nuclear weapons there to threaten America.
People feel the same when they look at the missile sites on each minaret within the UK.
far more dangerous to liberty.
Oliver L.
“The difference is that Cuba was installing Soviet weapons,or intended to install nuclear weapons there to threaten America.
People feel the same when they look at the missile sites on each minaret within the UK.
far more dangerous to liberty.”
The Soviet missiles in Cuba were put there to counterbalance American nuclear missiles which had been placed in Italy and Turkey, don’t complain about feeling threatened when you’re the one upping the ante.
cheng
I think you just make a very right decision ,I think there are something wrong with China’s soul and body .and she need to be cured immediately.
As a native Chinese,I can feel that and now more and more Chinese are just feeling that.
Yogi
Cheng, reading you gives me hope! After my disastrous experience with a chinese lady, driven into marriage with me by chinese censorship controlled western dating websites, to spy out the West….
Your comment as a native, self-aware chinese fuels my hope that over there in China is a growing number of independent-minded people like you!!!
Sue Tipping
Guess church activities and a nation founded on Biblical principles is out of the question, huh?
Lex
A nation founded on biblical principles??? I hope you are not referring to the USA – as it wasn’t. The creators of the constitution espoused freedom of religious belief, yet the USA has been “appropriated” by Christians who seem to think that it belongs more to them than non-Christians.
Waiguoren
“we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth” (Abe Lincoln, Gettysburg)
The Bible was an essential component of the political constitution of the United States. Lincoln understood this well.
tawhaki
Too bad Lincoln was neither born at the time of its drafting, nor had his home state been appropriated by the US yet. And even so he is not specific in which god he refers to in this quote.
Waiguoren
tawhaki,
The United States of America was founded by people for whom the Bible was “THE Book.” It is obvious that when Lincoln appealed to God he wanted to be understood as speaking of the Biblical God–a God that the first generations of Americans came to know through the Bible. Every State of the USA unequivocally invokes Almighty God (= akin to the “Deus Invictus” of Roman civil religion) in its constitution.
The founding of the USA is utterly incomprehensible aside from the Bible (and other good books). Those who imagine the founding as merely “secular,” err.
For the first generations of Americans, Religion meant in effect the Bible, so that when people appealed to religious freedom they meant freedom to interpret the Bible in public without fear of legal condemnation. They did not mean freedom (legal right) to oppose the PUBLIC RELIGION without which the American Founding would not have been possible. For to oppose that religion would have been eo ipso to oppose the Founding, and so to oppose the very Constitution of the USA.
Let this be clear, then: in its original or proper sense, American “freedom of religion” does not mean “freedom FROM religion.” Nor does it mean LICENSE to practice a private religion (which is the bogus freedom that MODERN CHINA and contemporary “ChinAmerica” pretend to be “the real thing”). Rather it means FREEDOM TO INTERPRET (i.e., to try to understand and to partake in the vitality of) THE PUBLIC RELIGION (civil religion) OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA–a religion that is unequivocally and essentially of Biblical extraction (absolutely incompatible with Maoism).
jixiang
Well, if the founders of the US did not believe in freedom from religion, and the freedom not to believe in the bible, then in my opinion they were wrong. Why does this mean China has to follow in their footsteps? And why is practicing a private religion “a bogus freedom”?
Waiguoren
Jixiang,
The USA Founders did not believe in any LEGAL DEFENSE of freedom FROM religion. Obviously they allowed for folks not to believe in what the Bible has to say. However, they sought to defend any attempt to make positive sense of the Bible (the religion overtly relevant to the Nation’s political constitution).
Who ever suggested that China should follow into the footsteps of the USA (with respect to the specificity of the Bible)?
Private religion is NOT religion proper. The very Chinese term “zong-jiao” suggests this much insofar as it pertains to the transmission of the ancestral authoritative teachings of a “zong” (tied to a “guo,” as in “guo-jiao”).
When Maoists reassure us that *their* China enjoys “freedom of religion,” what they mean in effect is that people are allowed to dream dreams that have no overt bearings on political or public life/morality. In other words, people are forbidden (or should we say “discouraged”?) from embracing a religion that challenges in any discernible way Party decisions. Why? Because the one public religion of China has been absorbed into the Maoist heritage.
Whereas with the American Founding, public religion could certainly challenge political decision-makers in their public conduct (and vice versa), given their reduction of public religion to politics, Communists do not allow any discernible Right higher than the one dictated by government officials. So the ancient creative tension between religious authority and political authority is lost and replaced by a radically progressive ideology. In a word, tyranny.
****
Jiziang wrote:
>Well, if the founders of the US did not believe in freedom from religion, and the freedom not to believe in the bible, then in my opinion they were wrong. Why does this mean China has to follow in their footsteps? And why is practicing a private religion “a bogus freedom”?
WY
as a Chinese woman living in Europe for 3yrs, my personal view is Chinese individuals are generally nicer and easier persons than the western world, because of which, the government can manipulate the people much more easily.
Sadly? chinese history/culture is like the barren soil for growing democracy.
olivier
On the whole I would agree with WY that the Chines are generally nicer than westerners but if you go to HK for example you can see the future of China’s people, it’s people are distant, self absorbed and standoffish…just like westerners. As someone who lived in China for a number of years in the late 80s and early 90s I experienced both the warmth and intelligence and soulfulness of the Chinese as well as their unbending, bitter racism and mob like nationalism…I was in Nanjing during the anti-african riots and that was “special”…! Nevertheless, african friends of mine could travel to far off villages and be treated with all the deference and respect foreign travelers have often marveled at. China is, much like the US, a very diverse and contradictory place, with one big difference, China may have figured out what it’s economic policies have been and might continue to be but is still woefully unprepared for a China where it’s citizenry starts clamoring for political and more importantly “legal” rights. I live in Vietnam and it reminds me of china in the mid 90s but Vietnam is very much like china, heading towards a political and economy cliff…. Many Vietnamese I meet wish to immigrate to the US as the perception is absurdly skewed towards a mythology which serves very little purpose. I always tell them to defer to their best judgement unless they are prepared to eek out a living for a couple generations until their children, thru merit, rise to become part of the highly educated, wealth creating elite. The Vietnamese are on the whole, like the Chinese, approachable, warm, friendly, have a good sense of humor, but, like the Chinese, can turn on a dime and display frightening characteristics: greed, ultra nationalism, unbending self-righteousness and mob behavior…. not withstanding the fact that all of these traits are written into our shared cultural DNA as human beings… I wish China the best but for the last 20 years have thought and realized that China could go either way…increasingly it seems rather obvious that they are heading in the wrong direction…but one thing I know is that the intellectual and creative elite I have met there are extremely talented and farsighted. let’s hope they get to shape the country as oppose to the nebulous plutocracy now governing China…it’s going to be interesting…and I think there is Chinese proverb about that one…!
walk pass
Mr Kitto, I don’t understand how much do you love China? From you essay, you are a foreigner, even you claim you love China.
Which country do not have their own problems? who do not think their country is better than others? which school do not teach their the value of their country to the children? how many ppls are not money oriented nowadays?
Any responsible country leader will think about feeding their country men, improve their economy, improve their technology, improve their health system and so on. Are those ‘problems’ more important than political reform? A lot of irresponsible ppls think swapping the leader, their country will become US. That is not going to happen, isn’t it? Swapping the leader will only lead to system breakdown.
Arguably, China the extreme of capitalism, in the sense that you can buy almost anything. That is why ppls are money oriented.
I think Chinese is nice. Chinese sort their problems inside. In contrast to US, they sort their problems by invading middle east for their oil and UN vote. Since US publicly announced US will take care their benefit in far east asia, regional conflicts are all over the newspaper. They also managed to sell weapon system to Japan, God knows how many weapon systems US will sell to south east asia from now on.
Piggy
I’m a Chinese in Hong Kong and I agree 100% to Mr. Kitto’s shrewd observation in China.
The general people in China has entirely upset the traditional Chinese value.
D
With every negative comment that goes on here pulls people further apart. I am sure none of you are racist but have just had bad experiences and the worst always sticks in the mind, it is just human nature. Whatever you say is wrong with China you will find in any country. I believe that the Chinese are just more honest about their faults, which could be a result of not being as good as the western states at manipulation of society and hiding truths rather than wanting to be honest, but never the less the things that go on in your own countries should render any argument worthless here. Yes there are problems here and yes there is corruption but no more than any other country. I remember doing some work for government during elections and having campaigners of another party stop us from campaigning in the area and then going door to door taking peoples voting sheets and filling them out. The crazy thing is I am English and if I had not seen it with my own eyes would never have guessed this could happen in my country, so stop throwing stones in glass houses, get on with your lives, make what you can of them and if you can’t make anything it is probably time to move on, but at the end of the day there are still thousands of foreigners who are living here making a living and living comfortably, what makes them different
anOverseasChinese
As a Chinese who left China around the same time the author went to China, returning to China to visit nowadays, I have EXACTLY the same feeling as Mark.
China is a mess! There is no good value standards left. The entire people is chasing money and nothing but money. The country is heavily polluted, from drinking water to the air people and animals breath.
I do not know the way out for China, simply adopting a western style democracy will probably push China into chaos and anarchy. The traditional way won’t work either, it was the way that made China what it is today. I am pessimistic.
Taiwanese
Pun intended. If you go live in Taiwan and become Taiwanese, the Chinese will automatically think you are Chinese, period.
L.F.
The Chinese are a people huge into face. Collectivism, Buddism, Communism brain-wash, have all contributed to a culture where any open discussion or debate of negative / sensitive issues could be defined as public disgrace. To make the matter worse, the second the debater/questioner turns out to be a foreigner, his/her actual arguments are no longer heard, instead, the common sentiment of nationalistic fever takes over.
Even the Chinese critisers from within get badly ignored, censored, bashed or punished, what do you expect as a foreign one?
Forget about becoming a Chinese if you were not born one, it’s hard enough for me, a native Chinese who left China 8 years ago, to undo it.
Oliver L.
How does Buddhism contribute to “face” and/or a squelching of discussing difficult issues publicly?
Sifan
“We are in a worse situation than are the subjects of a tyrannical governments-for we are liable to all the severity and injustice of arbitrary law, and yet do not enjoy is privilege or protection.”
The select committee in Canton reporting in 1784 to the East India Company on the situation of British merchants in China.
Wei
donkey carts – when i was in beijing in 1994, i remember in the winter there were lots of them carrying coals for our central heating system. Sometimes farmers also were using them to come to town and sell goods or plants
Friendship Store – in the old days I thought that was the most luxury shop in Beijing! It provided another world or capitalism world for me.
That’s really good one ” it came the first inflation china had experienced in 35 years’. I remember end of 80s when the first inflation came, everyone were thinking things were running out, everyone were buying and storing. My mum bought a couple of cotton duvets ??, a few ??, a few ???….. until now I still have a habit of storing stuffs or food. I think I have at least one month supply of pastas which I have stored for a year already….
“the system is designed to make avoidance of responsibility a prerequisite before any major decision is taken.”!!!!!!
A Chinese living aboard
Sifan: What kind of protection do you want? The protection to trade opium in China as the East India Company did?
Do not live in Hong Kong! Hong Kong is part of China and does not welcome someone like you.
sifan
chinese living abroad : visa and immigration policy in hong kong is independent of the people’s republic of china under the Basic law for at least 50 years from 1997. It is much easier for foreigners to get visas in hong kong than in mainland china. When I arrived in hong kong I was given 180 days free of charge at the airport. When I was offered a job my employment visa was issued very quickly. I did not have to have a medical checkup as is required in the mainland. With my employment visa I received a hong kong I d card which allows me free medical care at public hospitals. With my hong kong I d card I can enter and leave hong kong without queuing, I just swipe it and walk through. After 7 years as a resident I will be a permanent resident and then I will have a vote in hong kong elections. I will vote for the candidates who wish to prevent the mainlandisation of hong kong. I will support hong kong people ‘s wish to maintain tbe independence of hong kong. I’ll support hong kong people who wish to limit the numbers of mainland people coming to hong kong.
A Chinese living aboard
Sifan: I grow up in Hong Kong and I am a citizen of Hong Kong. By quoting this in your previous post:
“We are in a worse situation than are the subjects of a tyrannical governments-for we are liable to all the severity and injustice of arbitrary law, and yet do not enjoy is privilege or protection.”
The select committee in Canton reporting in 1784 to the East India Company on the situation of British merchants in China.”
it shows that you have no respect to and have no sense of getting along with the locals. You are living in the dream of Westerner imperialism and superiority.
Your posts shows that Hong Kong is kind to you. However, it is a shame to have you living in Hong Kong. Why don’t you go back to your home country which has a huge national debt? Do not live in Hong Kong and try to make some money from the Chinese!
Sifan
Chinese living abroad, good for you that you are Hong Kong citizen as you put it. You should then respect and admire the legal system which was set up by the British in Hong Kong. Chinese people are hard-working and industrious and succeed as individuals, but they have not been capable yet of creating a system like the Hong Kong system.
At the moment Hong Kong is being overrun by mainlanders. When I go out on Sundays I can hardly move, especially on national holidays like 1 October. Everybody in China seems to want to move to Hong Kong, because it is the only relatively free and civilised city in China.
The reason why I posted that quote about the East India Company was because it’s very interesting that expatriates living in China still face the same problems that they faced over 200 years ago. The Chinese expect model behaviour from foreigners, but they never give them the security of belonging. They expect foreigners to abide by the letter of their laws, even though they themselves believe that those laws don’t apply to them. It’s not just the expatriates are treated in this way, China’s so-called minority peoples are also victims of Han hypocracy. I remember when I was in Hailegou in Tibet, the local Chinese mountain porters told me that Tibetans are not allowed to work there, in there own country, because it would not be safe to let Tibetans carry tourists! Right now, I am reading a book about the invasion and colonisation Nasi Kingdom which is now Guizhou province by the Han Chinese during the Ming Dynasty.
Here is a quote from the book, which is called “Amid the Clouds and Mist” and is written by John Herman; “Non-Han acculturation and assimilation into Han civilisation were exceedingly problematic, if not impossible because of the central state’s unwillingness to eliminate institutional barriers designed to protect hand dominance of the frontier”.
As for the East India Company, it is true that they dealt in opium amongst other things – tea, textiles, etc. But I think that the biggest opium profits were made by the Chinese traders and the Chinese officials who allowed the opium trade in exchange for large bribes. Chinese people always like to forget their role in the opium trade, and pretend that they were merely passive victims. They also like to pretend that they have never attacked, conquered or colonised other countries, when in fact they have the longest history of attacking, conquering and colonising of any country.
Han Chinese treat their minorities with paternalistic condescension. If Britons were allowed to become citizens of the People’s Republic of China, we would be expected to dress up as Morris dancers on public holidays and celebrate the founding of the People’s Republic of China and its wonderful ethnic harmony!
Daniel
I am sorry folks but alot of this stuff I am reading in the comments section here is just not true, atleast in my world. As I posted before, I live in China, have done so for nine years now. I own a school, rather my chinese wife is rgistered as owner, I have a family, a house, a nice life and I owe itall to two things, the opportunity granted me here in China, and the fact that I adapt to the place I live. We obey all laws, I have a Chinese drivers license, we do not get involved in politics or religious propagation, we pay taxes as required. I do get annoyed by some of the cultureclashes we experience and traffic drives me buggy, but these things can happen anywhere. Te government leaves us alone, the police enforce the laws and a couple times when I broke the law, I was disciplined. I do see some of the points raised in the story, preferential treatment, uneven income, non existant judicial system, but these things have little bearing on our world. We simply live, love and learn. You have to adjust to any place you live and you have to respect the culture and laws where ever you live. Bsically you do yours and I will do mine and lets just get along shall we.
A Chinese living aboard
Sifan:
As a Hong Kong citizen, I would say that it is a shame to have someone like you to live in our wonderful city!
How many million people is living in a small island of Hong Kong? You cannot move freely on Sunday and you blame the mainlanders. Do you have any common sense?
You forgive the sin that the Britons committed by trading opium by blaming some Chinese officials accepted the bride. In fact, China refused the opium trading, and the Britons opened fire and got Hong Kong. What kind of person are you? It is a shame!!!!
You are living in our country and wish Hong Kong to be independent from China. Are you nut?
Regarding the treatment of Chinese minorities, you forget to tell everyone how the English extinguish the Scottish languages and the Irish languages.
It is a shame to have you in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is too kind to someone like who does not know how to respect the locals.
It is what you should do. Buy a British Airway ticket and fly back to your home country which carries a huge national debt. Pay your tax to the British government and helped it to pay off the national debt. Once you leave Hong Kong, your Hong Kong ID card will be not valid anymore as you are not Chinese citizen. You cannot come back anymore.
As a Hong Kong citizen, I am telling you that you are NOT welcome to live in our wonderful city.
Sifan
Daniel ; why can’t you own a school in your own name?
Chinese living abroad, where do you live? Why don’t you want to live in Hong Kong anymore?
Sifan
Of course Hong Kong has a right to be independent from China. I believe that is what most people in Hong Kong would choose if they had the choice. Hong Kong is a civilised place, it should not be ruled by a place which is so uncivilised as the PRC, everybody knows that. But Hong Kong people had no choice about the handover of Hong Kong to China. So like you, they voted with their feet and left Hong Kong, because they didn’t trust the Communist Party of China to rule China as well as the British. The majority of the Hong Kong people are refugees from China or children of refugees whose parents saw the terrible mess that the Communist Party made ruling China for thirty years, the tens of millions starved to death in unnecessary famines, etc etc. That is why the CPC had to guarantee that they would not change the Hong Kong system for at least fifty years, and would give Hong Kong a very high degree of autonomy. Without the guarantee, everybody would have left Hong Kong, and there would be nothing left except empty office blocks. Hong Kong people still do not trust the China today, and they are becoming more distrustful year after year, according to the opinion polls.
A Chinese living abroad, you do not represent Hong Kong and I don’t care whether you welcome me to Hong Kong or not, especially since you don’t live in Hong Kong anymore. I have lots of Chinese friends who agree with me on these matters, in fact I get my many of my ideas from Chinese people, not from Westerners. One Chinese told me that he was grateful to Britain for opening up China, because without Britain and the Opium War, China would still be enslaved by the Manchus, Chinese would still be governed by eunuchs and Chinese women would still have bound feet. Liu Xiaobo once said that China needed to be colonised by Britain for 300 years to become a civilised country. And I think he was right; Chinese people have proved incapable of creating free and democratic societies without outside help. Taiwan which was colonised by Japan is another example.
But of course there are still many many Chinese, like you, who lost have their ability to think rationally and independently after 2000 years of tyranny and 63 years of brainwshing, that is why China is still a mess and why we (both you and I ) don’t want to live in China. Forget about Hong Kong and China, you don’t live here any more. Try and enjoy your new life abroad and stop concerning yourself with the country which you have left behind and the foreigners who are trying to improve it. We are making a contribution to China by our work here, you are not. Try to understand the universal value of freedom of speech, and try to improve your English, but go and practice somewhere else first, you are not welcome to post on this website any more, at least as far as I’m concerned.
jixiang
You know, this argument that “if the British hadn’t opened up China by force, the Chinese would still be enslaved by the Manchus and run by eunuchs” is typical of the sort of agument colonizers use everywhere. “If the Europeans hadn’t conquered Africa, they would still be wearing loinscloths” etc…..
With the development of modern communication and technology, it is reasonable to assume that China (alongside the rest of Asia and Africa) would eventually have opened up and modernized anyway in one way or another. They didn’t ask for Britain to invade them, and the British had no right to do so.
razpor
Agreed hundred percent with you ….its sickening how they think asia would never have opened up and become integrated ….as an indian i can definitely relate to you there.
A Chinese living aboard
Sifan:
“Taiwan which was colonized by Japan is another example”? It shows that you do not really understand Chinese and Taiwanese.
Your promotion of Hong Kong independence shows the British’s self interest.
Please go back where you belong. We do not welcome you to live there.
XiaoMo
This is a great read. Thank you for writing it. As someone who lived in China for some years some years back and travelled there regularly, speak the language and can function in the culture, I can say this article is completely accurate.
No matter how well you ‘adapt’ no matter how much you learn and how deep you go into Chinese culture and society, if you are not genetically ‘Chinese’ you will not be accepted, even if you think you are.
If you imagine that you are at home in China as a foreigner and you are part of things, you are living in a dream. This dream can easily be dashed, and you may wake up quite suddenly with a shock. The socio-economic precipice that Kitto refers to here is real and when the bubble pops a LOT of foreigns are going to woken up from that dream very quickly.
There are so many problems in China, but the capacity and tendency towards nationalism is a very serious one. It has not turned so much towards westerners in a very serious way, but when useful, it will, and I do think any smart western resident should be mentally prepared for this, similar to the poor Chinese owner of a Japanese car that was recently beaten
Most people want to get out if they can, but if one was to explain WHY they wanted to get out (as shown in some comments above) the first response would be to attack the foreigner (or even claim a Chinese with that different viewpoint was mentally polluted by the west) and tell them to get out of China and ‘stop meddling in China’s internal affairs and 5000 years of culture etc etc… then get back to finding a way out of China…
Waixingren
It always amazes me to see and read so many obviously well educated and erudite people spending so much energy on describing and commenting about China or the Chinese (or other nations/cultures for that matter) at a macro-level when we as individuals can only experience it at the micro-level, through the myriad personal interactions and experiences we have each day.
Kitto’s experience is Kitto’s China. It is an interesting read and I thank him for sharing it, but it is not my ‘China’, nor is it anyone else’s China.
Take it for what it is, appreciate that someone has taken the time and effort to put pen to paper and record and share their experiences and consider what is really provoking such strong reactions in so many readers?
I am sure the world will be a much better place when we stop trying to become ‘Chinese” or “Western” and try and become “Human” instead.
Anna Young
What the author, Mark Kitto, said about China is absolutely unfair to China. Things happen for a reason.
With its continuous civil wars and foreign invasions in the past, China has become to mistrust foreigners.
Look at the U.S. strategic encirclement. The U.S. gang up with China’s neighbours, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Philippine, Taiwan, India, and lately Myanmar to surround and provoke China.
That is the reason why China has anti-foreign sentiment and strict control.
Mark, ask your ancestors what they did to China. They polluted a good Chinese civilization with harmful, dangerous drug, opium.
You should be thankful to China and Chinese for giving you the opportunities to learn the language, culture, and make your fortune and have a good family in China.
Instead of complaining and running away from China back to U.K. as you have the advantage, you should stay behind and patiently help your host country, China where makes you rich, to become a better country.
As John F. Kennedy said, “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.”
Let not ask what China can do for you, but ask yourself what you can do for China, your half homeland (because your Chinese wife is from China.)
Jen
No, Anna, you are wrong. If your point was valid then many other countries similarly invaded over the centuries would be acting in the same manner, and they are not.
If you believe that China’s ‘anti-foreign sentiment and strict control’ (your words) is due to previous invasions you have obviously NOT read anything about the past 70 years.
And going down the touchy-feely road of blaming people today for what was done in the past (probably NOT personally by THEIR ancestors) is so politically correct as to be laughable.
I think Mark has been patient enough, and deserves time out from a country that hasn’t exactly been the easiest place to live. If you read more of his writings you will learn that he has a true love and regard for China and its people, and has given as much as JFK would have asked of him. So, when he does return to the UK, his wife will, I hope, be welcomed there, and eventually, she will be able to achieve the status that would never, ever be afforded her husband.
Fred
Look at what China does – supports the world’s worst regime,nightmare country North Korea! Takes one to know one..
Did you read the article? Kitto himself built a media empire and surely created wealth and jobs enough. Everyone knows English is a non material commodity like copper or timber.
Did you read the part about the Chinese state seizing his business?
Did you read the part about how they completely copied his business model?
Did you read anything about his wife creating a multi-million media business ( no doubt she helped but..) ?
So who owes who? Who seized whose business? Who copied whose model?
Your debt of gratitude argument doesnt take account of the facts.
You are right, Mao gave Chinese hope after being bullied by Imperialists. He gave Chinese pride. But truly,China became great not because of the enemy of capitalism – Mao,but because Deng had studied in France and understood the West. So we kinda saved you. Perhaps you should come and work off your debt of gratitude for my governent hahahahah!
Fred
On the other hand, if you dont like Western zibenzhuyi or capitalism, if you think that freedom of expression is a Western liberal idea, you are free to reconstruct Mao’s regime in China. If you feel that you have spoken out against an authority, please construct a prison in your house and lock yourself in for ten years.
In your day to day life,u will receive,when working, no money at all – but food points. You will perform manual labour jobs only and will be denied a university education and the right to leave your danwei and travel freely.
Please hand over your i pad and i phone and while you’re at it, I suggest you reeducate yourself with labour for the sin of learning a Capitalist Roader language like English.
Good luck! By the way, dont you dare trying use your talents to earn money or take a religion. We have already measured your head for the dunce cap and I think that suicide could be the only way to forget your shame.
Long live anti-imperialist Mao!
Ill expect your i pad handed in to my office by Monday latest. You will be assigned to the Beijing work farm, eight hours a day.
maniza
The first generation of immigrants will attempt to blend in a society, a community ,an area.This in any state that any nation can’t do!
So you can drite a lot of artical like that!
you’ll never be Japanese,
you’ll never be American
you’ll never be Britian
you’ll never be Frenchman
………………………………
sifan
Anna Young when considering this excuse for isolationism and xenophobia it is important to remember that china has its own long history of invading and colonizing other countries, perhaps more than any other nation. For example around the time that the europeans began arriving in south china, in the 16th century, Guizhou, Sichuan and Yunnan provinces had not yet been conquered by the Han chinese. The Nasi kingdom in Guizhou was only conquered by a scorched earth campaign in which the Han chinese destroyed everything to bring the Nasi people to their knees. It is similar to things the japanese did in china in the 20th century. Yet most chinese know nothing of this history and many chinese have told me that their country has never invaded any other country.
XiaoMo
If we were going to talk about expansionism and imperialism as some kind of legitimate cause for Chinese people and society internally treating foreigners the way they do, we would first have to examine Chines expansion into Tibet, which was never ‘part of China’ and Xijiang, which is clearly not even slightly Chinese for starters as well.
Since Chinese for the most part are unable to consider intelligently even thinking about considering this topic, we can perhaps scrap the idea of blaming anyone else for expansionism.
Just because you ignore facts, reality and recent or long term history because politics tells you to, does not make them disappear. So with those expansionist facts that a whole society is ignoring canceling out the expansionism argument, just drop it unless you want to actually look at the non-ccp-rewritten history.
Unfortunately, the CCP loves propaganda and it works. Chinese people have responded to it very well. Unfortunately most are not even able to consider the alternative, and they expect the rest of the world to believe what they believe. Outside of China it is a joke, remember that next time to you try to argue using the party line on a world-wide forum.
Vin
XiaoMo, Sifan:
I see that you guys seem to have a good understanding of the apparent disconnect with reality that seems to exist with many chinese people, no matter how educated. I now have a chinese boyfriend for a few years already, and have realized that it is difficult to understand each other on those issues. As you mention, there is this “us versus the westerners” mindset that tends to dismiss all foreign versions of history as “anti-chinese bias”. I have been torturing myself a lot, trying to open myself to the idea that after all, I may also myself be the product of “western propaganda”, as my boyfriend suggests. No matter how much i try to think about that idea, it’s very hard to me to not conclude that some form of brainwashing must have taken its toll on him. Have you also felt helpless in addressing these issues with chinese people? Is there hope for understanding? We love each other very much, and there are better things in daily life than arguing about divisive political issues, but I feel the difference has created a certain distance and made it hard to really understand each other.
Do you guys have any advice on how to approach these conflicts? or is the only solution try to downplay and ignore these issues which cannot realistically be reconciled? All advice welcome!
Vin
XiaoMo: “Unfortunately, the CCP loves propaganda and it works. Chinese people have responded to it very well. Unfortunately most are not even able to consider the alternative, and they expect the rest of the world to believe what they believe. ”
That’s what I fear: I have found it scary that propaganda seems to work so well. But at the same time, I find it hard to believe that it can work so well even on very smart and educated people who have even been living abroad. I would have thought that those people would be less subject to this propaganda and better equipped to see through it. I am really wondering whether it is really so sad or whether I am just not open-minded enough to listen to “alternate viewpoint” (and maybe i am somewhat slightly biased myself?)
A Chinese living aboard
Sifan:
Your posts show the interest of a former colonist who cannot forget the interest of its colony.
You have no idea whether I am living aboard permanently or temporary, and whether I go back to Hong Kong frequently. It is my personal matter.
Is it true that Chinese people have proved incapable of creating free and democratic societies without outside help? Is it true that Taiwan which was colonized by Japan another example to prove your claims. It is a common tactic, which colonists employed to fool the locals of the colony.
Twenty years ago, a 40 year old Japanese told me that North East China should be independent. China should be divided into several countries otherwise China was too big to be developed. It demonstrated that a former colonist of the North East China could not forget the benefit of having a colony. After twenty years, can I reply to that Japanese that Japan should be a province of China otherwise Japan can never get out of its economic recession?
I am very impressed of your language ability. You can speak and write your mother tongue quite well. I would suggest you to further prove your language ability by learning Taiwanese.
Fifty percent of Taiwanese population has never been ruled by Japanese. The whole Taiwanese legal and government systems were based on the Chinese system. It is the system developed by Dr. Sun, the father of the Republic of China. There was zero trace of Japanese legal system. Today’s legal and democratic systems in Taiwan were completely developed by the Chinese or Taiwanese with the Japanese complete absent. It was so long after Taiwan was liberated.
Our history textbooks recorded clearly our wars with the West. Thank you for pointing out the Nasi Kingdom. I have learned that when I was a boy. Our history textbooks also recorded how the Mongolian was nationalized as Chinese before the Ming dynasty. Our history textbooks taught our kids how the newly Great nationalized Chinese army (Mongolian) entered Europe and brought the European to the knees. We never hide and forget the facts.
You can vote in the Hong Kong legislation council election. The legislation council is one of the highest ruling bodies in Hong Kong. Please ask yourself that which countries in the world allow PR cardholder to vote in the election of one of the highest government council. UK and US do not allow this. You have forgot to tell the world that your voting right was approved by the Chinese government. The right of Hong Kong permanent residents to vote is guaranteed in Article 26 of the Basic Law, where nationality is not even mentioned. The basic law was drafted between Hong Kong and the Chinese government. It shows the openness of Chinese. A EU citizen cannot even vote in any election (except the local city or town election) of the country in which he lives but not a citizen. You can vote for our chief executive which is equivalent to the Prime Minster in the UK in the next election. Will the UK or US government allow this? During the British rule, the British did not allow us to vote for our legislature council. Think about this!
You do not need to worry the independence of Hong Kong. As a UK passport holder, you should worry about the independence of Scotland. When I was in Scotland, my Scottish driver told me that he wished to use all the water in the lake of Loch to flood England and kill all the English. It is the independence, which you should work on.
If I live in your home as a guest and advise your wife to divorce from you, you will definitely kick me out from your home. By applying the same principle to you, you are not welcome to live in Hong Kong. It is a shame of having you living in our wonderful home. Hong Kong government has too much tax money. Hong Kong government refunds some of the tax money to everyone. We do not need your contribution. You should buy a one way British air ticket and go back to the UK. Please help your home country to pay down the national debt.
You are not welcome in Hong Kong.
Fred
At the end of the day, you have to admit two things:
1. Britain were an evil colonial power,
2. Sadly, so is China today and was to a lesser extent in the past.
And Im afraid you have to live, as a Hong Konger,with an embarassing truth. Hong Kong people seem to prefer British rule to Chinese.
jingyang
“The whole Taiwanese legal and government systems were based on the Chinese system. It is the system developed by Dr. Sun, the father of the Republic of China”.
Actually, Chinese legal reform begun under the Qing Dynasty, so Sun Yat-sen doesn’t get all the credit.
“Today’s legal and democratic systems in Taiwan were completely developed by the Chinese or Taiwanese with the Japanese complete absent.”
Actually, the Japanese gave limited democracy to Taiwan – there were elected county-level representatives after 1934 -which the Guomindang continued. Taiwan also had representatives in the Japanese House of Peers. Japanese itself during most of the period 1895- 1945 was a constitutional monarchy (as the UK still is). So whilst not disproving your assertion, it does I think show that you give too much credit to China (as represented by the ROC or Guomindang) as the origin of democratic ideology and ideals in Taiwan. Besides that – after the Nationalist Chinese government took control of Taiwan in 1945 it explicitly stated that the ROC constitution would not apply there – and then in 1949 it applied martial law.
“It was so long after Taiwan was liberated.”
You seem to be trying to have your cake and eat it too – you claim that since it has been 68 years since the Japanese ruled Taiwan that the current democratic system owes little to them, while at the same time you happily give credit to China (which has not been democratic since 1949, and has not ruled Taiwan since then either). I think you are underselling the efforts of Taiwanese themselves to build their democracy since the late 1960s (and in particular since 1987), and giving too much credit to China. Taiwan’s legal system may have been developed in China pre 1949, but degree of rule of law (which China mostly itself honors in the breach) and democracy that Taiwan enjoys today owes little to China.
Whilst you proclaim yourself a proud Hong Konger, and thus seek to distinguish yourself from other Chinese, your posts how clearly that you are not immune to the Chinese nationalism and chauvinism that Mark pointed out in his article…how ironic for you.
Tobias W.
Another show case of how unsafe food produced in China is:
Caterer Sodexo served frozen strawberries from China to schools in Germany. More than 11.000 students caught a nasty flue because the strawberries from China were infected with a Norovirus.
Even if Mark moves away from China, the things he criticized about China can still affect him and his family in other countries.
There’s a reason even mainland Chinese prefer to buy Chinese products from Taiwan if they have the chance as they trust these more as the local products.
A Chinese living aboard
I have a question.
A foreigner in Japan cannot rent any apartment by himself. He must take whatever apartment which his employer can rent for him otherwise he is homeless. There is no freedom of choice. Even after living in Japan for his whole life, unless he is willing to change his family to be something like Honda, Toyota, Suzuki ….. etc, he cannot be nationalized as Japanese.
It seems that no westerner has complained, ‘You never be Japanese’. Why?
Jen
I think you’ve lost the thread, the point, the purpose of your argument now, probably would have been better to quit a few posts ago as now your statements are bordering on the desperate.
racheal
Hogwash. I am a non-Japanese resident, and I live in my own fairly nice and well-equipped apartment (lest you argue that it must be only one step above a cardboard box) in central Tokyo. The apartment rental agreement was entered into by me, with no assistance from or involvement by my employer…
racheal
And no, I will never be Japanese.
jingyang
Not true. I have lived in Japan and whilst my work visa was tied to my employer, I was free to live wherever I pleased.
Also, bringing in “Japan does this too” does not make Mark’s points about China any less valid.
Me
I find it quite surprising how people try to argue here.
I also have to say that some guys should feel ashamed for the words they choose.
Mark Kitto is describing his own problems and in his case it went this way. Not a single country is perfect, yet most of you start blaming other countries.
You should first have a look at yourself before criticizing anyone/ anything else. Neither of us can deny that in every country there are serious problems, but what makes the problems worse is that patriotism and nationalism, apparently, makes people forget we are still humans! Everyone one of us is flesh, has a nose, eyes, ears and most of the rest too! Why don’t you idiots stop trying blaming everyone else and start to look at your own country?
I cannot remember who wrote it, but yes, the Chinese population is doing better and better…but for how long? When the bubble crushes, people are going to demonstrate because sooner or later they realize what is going on. Freedom of speech and many other naturally given rights are denied publicly and remembering the last years, how come that even Chinese people are demonstrating? And please don’t tell me it is because the west started it!
Chinese as well as western countries have invaded and looted other countries for centuries and still are doing – China as well as western countries.
Jack Beauregard
Recent Chinese history has been cruel. And you cannot blame only Foreigners for it. Chinese arrogance is dominant today in many industries. It matches the arrogance of their former colonists. No lesson here.
Yet, for sure Chinese economic miracle is just momentary, as it was elsewhere. Choices made now will have tremendous consequences. What Western economies are going through is just the heritage of the choices they made or did not make.
It is very uncertain that China will do better than Western countries. It is making the same mistakes, if not more mistakes, and its mass does not always play in favor of its development. China has endemic problems that are far from solved. No lesson to give here.
Now, man has never had so much impact. Our impact is way more detrimental than it was 40 years ago. Today’s mistakes are more impactful mistakes. If China does not make the right choices, man is in trouble. China should show the way of peace and clean development, China should show the way out of this doomed and out of control consumerist and impactful destruction of the world we live in. Chinese has the opportunity to show the world that they are more responsible human beings that Westerners were, more mature human beings, who have understood the lessons of the past.
But it does not look that way. This exchange is full of resentment on both sides, and there are reasons for it. Without being able to overcome our negative feelings, and unify for a better tomorrow, we are just heading towards more complications, more harm, more sorrow.
Is this about revenge? Or evolution? Or survival. Time will say.
One thing is sure: the Western experience is rich, and should be used by the Chinese. They can legitimately set up the rules as this is their moment but there are not too many options to save the world. this can only be achieved TOGETHER.
A Chinese living aboard
Jack: “China should show the way of peace and clean development, China should show the way out of this doomed and out of control consumerist and impactful destruction of the world we live in. Chinese has the opportunity to show the world that they are more responsible human beings that Westerners were, more mature human beings, who have understood the lessons of the past.”
My reply: “Yes, China has developed the clean energy technology. Now China control most of the solar planel market as well as the wind turbine technology market. You do not need to worry.”
beijing shots
whats the problem? most white guys are in China to milk them for money anyway. never heard of a white guy in China who wants to be Chinese. they just want Chinese money
John Delius
With regard to the point about aggression towards Westerners, or strangers in general, when I lived in China I used to walk to my university every day. When crossing the road I often noticed that cars would accelerate to make you give way when if they had continued at the same speed you could have crossed without hurrying; and some cyclists would go out of their way to pass in front of you when it would be shorter for them to pass behind. On a couple of occasions I got my own back: I continued to walk in a straight line and the cyclist ran into the curb.
A Chinese living aboard
Mark Kitto:
http://www.ftchinese.com/story/001046950
I think that you can read this article. It answer some of your questions.
Sifan64
Jiangxi, I think that you have answered your own question. If the Opium wars had not happened, China’s modernisation would have been much delayed. This would have meant that practices regarded by civilised people as intolerable and unacceptable would have continued for longer. For example, at the time of the Opium wars China was nation in which the ritualised abuse of female children through the cruel and barbaric practice of foot binding was universal. Without the Opium wars, foot binding would probably have continued for many more decades or even centuries, and hundreds of millions more little girls would have been had their feet crippled for the enjoyment of Han sadists. In my opinion, anything which hastened the end of the barbaric sadistic practice of footbinding should be viewed as a positive historical development.
AX
I believe myself fill into the category of trying in our small way to make China a better place.
It is truly hard. Even trying to criticize my own parents about their optimism of China’s future is difficult enough. Not to mention the rest 1.3 billion.
China
What is that exactly? You mean permanent residency? It’s funny that he is leaving just at the time when foreigners can contribute to a state pension and social security fund.
ChinaTeacher475
“What is that exactly? You mean permanent residency? It’s funny that he is leaving just at the time when foreigners can contribute to a state pension and social security fund.”
Oh, isn’t it great that we can contribute to the state pension fund now? We also chip in for unemployment benefits. A little problem, though. If I’m unemployed I think that means I lose my visa in which case I have to return to my home country. I’m sure the nearest Chinese consulate would get a big kick out of me asking how I can collect on my unemployment. As for the retirement benefits, I have a feeling it’s going to be a similar story: I lose my visa, am forced to return to my passport country, and have no means of collecting my contributions. No, I don’t trust my own government much either. As a US citizen I also have doubts about the return I’ll get on my contributions to Social Security. Still, I doubt “contributing to the state pension fund” is much more than just another foreigner tax.
Fred
I sympathize with the Opium War in invasion argument. Even Mark admits it was cruel. Are Chinese just as cruel? Probably.
But its one country invading another and pushing drugs. Sure, officials and mafia id collude and benefit.
I read an account that Chinese diplomats could have prevented all of it if they had simply had a similar mind-set. It seems they agreed to negotiate but used this as a means of secretly attacking three or four times! Buying time?
But I blame the British,its unforgivable.
However, one thing is easy to answer; do Hong Kongers prefer Western system of government to mainland Chinese?
I believe they do.
One hundred thousand marching against guoxue propaganda classes in schools is a large chunk of Hong Kong.
How many hundreds of thousands just resented it silently?
July heat with babies marching? Unpleasant conditions – must mean something.
Look at stats. Presence of protests over forty thousand or countries of about eight million must surely mean universal disapproval of the populace.
Over one hundred thousand? Now that surely indicates categoric disapproval o f Beijing government one party system agitpop in school systems.
What more? Hong kongers to,d me in Hong Kong and Thailand they dslike mainland Chinese who they consider ill-mannered, too showily rich and undemocratic.
The stewardess said it on the airfligt to us flying from Hong Kong to Bang Kok,then again, more forcefully in a Bangkok hotel – we dont want mainland system,only British!
I promise you, Im not lying, even I, an English guy, could really get it. But its the way they feel. And they are a more polite people, who treated me very well when ai was in Hong Kong. Chin’s cool too, just low sophistication.
Fred
So people from Hong Kong complaining about the awful English colonization of Hong Kong, and people in China too..
If you want to know how Hong Kong people feel – well, I think they’ve told you now.
In Tianamen Square the students and workers told you, Beijing.
They wanted freedom of speech and workers rights.
Hong Kong wants a real electoral democracy which it was promised.
But that promise has been broken.
The birth of democracy came late and derived from ideas such as Rousseau’s tacit consent which Mao read avidly.
The theory is, man is free but gives away his state of nature freedom to the government so long as that government can protect his freedoms in a constitution. Beijing has not. It has no proper rule of law. Therefore it has no tacit consent of the people.
We are all born free but are everywhere in chains.
Soon the one card that Beijing has – its economic success – will collapse, and then the people will demand an electoral democracy and freedom of expression just like they did before – but with a greater and unsuffocable vehemence..
Fred
‘insuffocable’
Kastus
Fred, you are completely brainwashed.
At first you should know “Hongkong real electoral democracy” doesn’t allow to vote for all citizens. Whats the Ironyc.
In the world there is no ideal goverment’s system – dosn’t matter democracy is it or something another.
And how you can use expressions like “Hong Kong people feel” and “Hong Kong people want”? Who you are? The God?
If i meet peaple talk like this I understand they are stupid or brainwashed.
Because eveyone is different. Everyone has own feelings and dreams. Actually the most of them are not interested in Polytics. The same in China or USA or Hongkong.
So at first you should respect another countries and people who live there. Next you can discuss something.
Fred
‘Who are you? The God’?’
Its amazing how advanced Chinese education is yet how stupid some of you with your no logic comments.
100,000 marched with children in the July heat dumbass! Hong Kong isnt that big!
China was trying to ‘ brainwash ‘ Hong Kong into the benefits of the one party system,but failed!
There is no perfect system,true. But freedom of expression is the people’s right.
Bi shi bei xinao de nageren shabi!
Fred
‘Who are you? The God’?’
Its amazing how advanced Chinese education is yet how stupid some of you with your no logic comments.
100,000 marched with children in the July heat dumbass! Hong Kong isnt that big!
China was trying to ‘ brainwash ‘ Hong Kong into the benefits of the one party system,but failed!
There is no perfect system,true. But freedom of expression is the people’s right.
Nii shi bei xinao de nageren shabi!
Fred
Im angry because you completely missed my argument; my argument is this:
100,000 people marched against brainwashing, through enforced patriotism class.
This implies that in a country of only 8 million there is strong anti CCP feeling.
Surely that is a good argument. It’s based on statistics.
By the way, funny you should accuse me of being brainwashed. Hats what they were marching about. Thats irony.
Fred
If fact, my argument goes:
100,000 marching in a country of 8 million implies majority agree with the marchers, simply because it’s a huge number for protestors. Most people don’t protest.
Most people aren’t interested in politics? Just go fuck your mother you patronizing paternalistic little creepoid!
Kastus77
Fred, you are completely brainwashed.
By the way I am not Chinese. So relax and try to think.
100K is it so huge?
When in Ukraine pro-West Orange revolution starts i think there were about 200,000 on squer. But some years later people of Ukraine drasticly changed their opinion.
When I a was talking to Chinese i realize just one thing. They are different. Ethnically they are similar but mentally really different.
Its true for reople in one city but especially about humans from diff. provinces.
Thats what i like in China. So whatever you says about China its true. Its funny and interesting.
Fred
Hi Kastus,
I dont think Im really that brainwashed. But I get tired of insults.For a start I believe, somethng which many English dont, that we owe reparations to China for invading their country in the Opium War.
And yes, I salute China for its amazing growth. Good for China!
However, I HAVE lived theree for five years and I do speak good Chinese. I am not the average Westerner. In fact many Westerners support China and know that the media go overboard (really The Neew York Times) with their false reports of Tiannamen Square for example. There were few deaths in TS, only outside. We dont know th true numbers, perhaps a thousand. Soldiers were also killed.
So Im not brainwashed. Actually I think CIA should be put on trial for war crimes.
But I do believe that in a small country, tiny in fact – like Hong Kong – 100,000 people is a huge number.
Also, listen to what Hong Kongers say – look at how their children dress and behave – these people are a world apart from Chinese mainlanders. Im sorry – but I know MORE about this than you do. I taught Philosophy, Literature and History there for five years. Please respect me.
As for what CHinese think about their government, according to what Chinese mainlanders themselves told me – most dont like it.
And it would,(my argument) appear that Hong Kong people (because of such a huge number of protestors) do disagree with Beijing government. They, like most countries, want self-determination.
Also, that thing about Scotland – I am Scottish. I never heard Scottish people resenting the ENglish that much. The English do not
1. Try to beat down their religion and burn their churches, both of which China does to Xinjinag (preventing them from celebrating Ramadam for example) and burnt down many Tibetan monasteries as well as enforced Marxism classes in Tibet.
2.Try to overrun the economy of Scotland and Xinjiang.
3. Generally cause priests to self-immolate then pronounce them terrorists (the only country to call a suicide that only harms the one who commits it a terrorist!) and beat/kill Tibetan protestors.
ALl these facts are true. AS for Tibet progressing under China – China also had 35 years life expectancy in 1950. All countries eventually improve.
As for Ukraine, I dont hear good things. But I heard terrible things under Communism.
Kastus
Fred, If you teach History I completely don’t understand you.
From History you should find out that only The Strong is Right. It was forever.
Tibet? Xinjiang? Are you serious? I don’t deny that is Colonization. But the softest colonization The World ever known.
Maybe colonization in XX century looks for you like something unacceptable. But for example look at Australia. In XX century the world was watching ordinary genocide of native people. Children were separated from their families to be growing in Catholic European tradition. And now aborigens are lost people without any future in their country.
Does China the same? Do you really think so? I don’t know any other counties give minorities much more opportunities than title nation. But in China it is the Law!
China don’t kill Tibetan protestors. You lie. Maybe there were come local accident but really few. I think Britain kill far more people in Asia in the same period.
In the clashes in Tibet and Xinjiang most of victims were han Chinese. And if gomvt takes some actions its just in order of establishing, safety.
Self-immolate action now happen in Europe too. Causing by economical reasons but it doesn’t matter. They are monks, sacrifice themselves is their occupation. Muslims can bomb themselves. But I am sure someone rule this process. Actually this occasions happened not in Tibet but in other Provinces.
Look at India, look at Pakistan, look at Birma. 30 years ago they were at similar positions. Bur where now is China and where are they? Its unprecedented achievement for such huge country. Or do you think in democratic India people live better?
The Time! What is the great ruler. If Scotland isn’t be so long under England ruling I think you will have much more aggressive aspirations. Don’t believe. Look at North Ireland.
In relation to Hong Kongers or Taiwanese they have been lived separately long time. So some of them think they are better than mainlanders. More clever, more democratic, more skillful. I think it’s ordinary arrogance typical for rich people. But some of them really think they are another people. Despite ethnically they are mostly the same.
And as I know most of Hong Kongers complain not with Chinese govmt but with ill-mannered mainlenders.
Fred
Hi Kastus – basically China is trying to indoctrinate Tiebt and Xinjiang with MArxism and trying to destroy their religious identity and national identity. It tried to do that with Hong Kong but this met with massive opposition (100,000 people) – so..
You lost the argument with Hong Kong,although I admit, the colonization of Tibet DOES have some advantages for Tibetans,like having two children etc or tax benefits.
Many cases of Tibetans being tortured to death or Falun GOng being tortured to death..I’m not lying (as you immaturely point out!) though I may (I doubt this) be wrong in the numbers.
Basically 100,000 Hong Kong people marched in protest of Beijing rule (effectively) by protesting the infiltration of its propaganda into its education system, otherwize known as brainwashing. CHinese invented brainwashing – perfecting it in the Korean war with American allies – they came back fervent Communists after a stay in the labour camps..interesting eh?
ANyway, you still mantain that Hong Kong have just ‘an arrogant attitude’ immaturely -despite the huge numbers and 40,000 to commemorate Tiannamen Square too! Watch it on Youtube!
You are immature. I refuse to debate with you because you lost the argument – 100,000 people in a VERY small country can be taken as majority.
Fred
Kastus,
1. Guang DOng and Hong Kiong people speak a different language from the YEllow River Han. Their language is 2000 years older than Mandarin. Cantonese has not corrputed its beauty and philosophy by simplification.
2. If Hong Kong only protest about ill-mannered Han – why the f do they protest about Tiannamen Square and Brainwashing?!
(That is why you are boring to me KAStus – because you cant answer this argument,you ignore it. But I cannnot!)
3.Scotland did not have thousands of its kirks or churches destroyed by the Red Guard,unlikeTibet. Yet you ignore this.
4. I argued that self-immolation cannot be regarded as terrorism, whereas suicide bombing can, because the latter harms others. You conflate the two and again, broingly, ignore my argument that they are not the same.Yet BEijing thinks they should be!
5.Many CHinese have selfimmolated over LAND EVICTION.WHo has in Europe? Name me at least fifty cases in the last four years in the WHOLE OF EUROPE!
Again, you ignore my point.
6.Northern Ireland – there were terrorists on BOTH sides, for the British and against them. So who should win? In 1976 there was a referendum and the people favoured in the majority British rule. So what should the British have done?
You will ignore the above points.
7. As for Australia, I agree- they were a BArbaric and cruel race and still are a bit. The Aborigines is something to cry about daily. Aussies even had degrees of racism according to degrees of blackness!
No-one is perfect. No government is perfect. America did terrible things. Britain did terrible things.
They still do bad things, but they are perhaps the most advanced in the world still for Human Rights and Democracy, itself a part of the political manifestation of human rights.
Yes the US is selfish and needs oil – thats why it supports Saudi etc. But we dont support nightmare North Korea like China does or nightmare African genocidal regimes like China does.
So there..think.Dont ignore. ANd dont partonise me or others – you say ‘Chinese people and US people dont care about politics’ yet politics determines
1.how much tax we pay
2.the education of our children
3.
Sifan64
i believe that the opium wars were a necessary evil. Firstly, compared to other wars in Chinese history, it was an almost bloodless war, opium was the best pain killer then known, no one forced Chinese to use it and China’s Manchu emperor could have ended the Opium trade at any time by strict enforcement of domestic prohibition, like he forced all Han Chinese to grow pigtails or face decapitation. Secondly, China at the time practiced child crippling called footbinding, firstly in order to make women take away women’s independence and secondly because crippled feet were attractive while uncrippled feet were considered unattractive. Men fantasized about holding tiny crippled feet in their hands while copulating and wrote pornographic texts about it. China was thus a nation of child molesters and crippled-foot fetishists. Almost all girls were crippled, the exceptions being the very poor and non Han-Chinese-for example Manchu women did not do it; Ci Xi the last Manchu empress did not have crippled feet. The process was literally a form of torture, it took years and started when girls were only three. The custom began at the end of the Tang dynasty and lasted until the 1930s. You can still find women with crippled feet today. What are the long term effects on a nation of this history of abuse and torture of children? I think you can see it in the way that Chinese treat each other today, and in the comments of some people on this blog.
The opium wars lit the fuse which ended Imperial China and the practice of foot crippling. How can this not be considered a good thing?
That is why enlightened Chinese thank Britain for the Opium wars. Unfortunately they are small minority. The majority have still not fully outgrown the history of hundreds of years of crippling and being crippled. It will take a few more generations for that to change.
Mark Kitto lived in China 16 years, married a Chinese, had children, learned Chinese culture well and created employment for local people for many years. Anyone of these facts should entitle him to be allowed to naturalise. But until China has outgrown its tortured past, that is not going to happen.
Fred
Sifan,
I’m not sure how the Emperor could have ended opium – this would mean end of opium trade and Britain would have invaded again. Thus the opium trade was ensured contracturally in Nanjing treaty? I dont agree with you.
Secondly, you impute the end to the evil EMpire’s footbinding to the Opium Invasion. Yet this custom was eradicated in the forties and completely in the fiffties by MAo,as well as opium and prostitution.
In fact, since foot-binding was not eradicated by the British – how can you cite this as a cause?
Opium, as an evil of the Emire days – was caused by the British. Concubinage was eradicated by Sun Yat Sen not by the British. Opium by Mao not by the British lol! And in fact,the terrible truth may be that we indirectly or even diorectly CAUSED MAo’s ability to hold a cruel sway of power simply because Communism was seen as the anitdote to Imperialism. China had suffered greatly from IMperialism, including being made second class citizens in their own country (put yourself in their shoes) and so on..
So the Cultural Revolution, only forty years after the imfamous park declaration that forbade CHinese frequenting the park in Shang Hai – unless they were servants of the white man and some other conditions – WOULD have had a large impetus from US. That is, the British IMperialism.
So, in effect, we are also responsible for the craziness of Mao Ze DOng and the suffering he imparted on his people as avenging in extremis the ills of imperialism.
What say you?
Lord Koos
Sifan, being an advocate for the British colonial policies in China during the Opium wars is pretty sad. Millions of lives worldwide were ruined by the opium trade. The Brits at that time were on about the same level as the violent Latin drug cartels are today, no matter how you try to revise that history. You come off as totally ethnocentric in your views. Give it up, gracefully if possible.
Steven
I have read and thoroughly enjoyed Mark Kitto’s book about 3 years ago and in that book he painted a romantic picture of his little cafe’ business in Mogashan. Happy in his retreat which he sees as a respite from his magazine ‘empire’ in Shanghai which he professed to have been nationalised by his competitors. The lovely story finished with the reader thinking that he, Mark, with his wife and children finally found peace in the otherwise ‘hostile’ host country, which he loved and finally called home. It gave the reader the impression that a foreigner has finally become Chinese accepted by the community in Mogashan as well as his host country China.
The book was published as a non-fiction, which means a personal story of Mark’s personal experiences in China. His book was entitled “Cuckoo China: How I lost a fortune and found life in China”. The title in itself conveys exactly what Mark was trying to say. There is life in China despite the turmoil.
What happened to Mark and his sanctuary? Why the change?
I offer two possibilities:
1: On his book, he mentioned the possibilities of book two a follow up to the highly publicised book one. I must say, I would be a ready customer for his book two. I was hunger for book two, eager to find out what happened after he finally opened his lovely cafe cum restaurant in the romantic setting on Mogashan. I even considered travelling from Australia to visit Mogashan just to dine in Mark’s cafe and chance a meet with the author, whilst he waitered and cooked. Perhaps this inflammatory article he wrote in Prospect is Mark’s publisher’s marketing machinery playing out their pre-launch strategy. This sounds like a great pre-cursor to his up-coming second book. Most readers would want to read more about his thoughts / cum experiences in China. Why the sudden change and now wanting to leave his life he finally found. Perhaps an appropriate title might be “Cuckooed China: How I found life and lost it”
2: Another perspective might simply be, after so many years fighting to be accepted, Mark had finally become a real Chinese. Accepted by the community and treated as a putongren living the life of the laobaixing (the common people) and stripped off his western status and the benefits that comes with being western. Without the benefit of the western status that is bestowed on most foreigners in China, the hard and often stressful life of living in a country going through its first economic take-off has perhaps taken its toll on Mark. Perhaps for Mark, it is the realisation of a disappointed dream. Being a real Chinese may not be as romantic as he envisioned it to be. Perhaps he was trying to be Chinese from a western perspective and from this perspective did not like what he saw. If the Mongols and Manchus (both foreigners) became “more Chinese than the Chinese” what I wonder would be Mark’s issues?
In his article Mark offered a list of reasons supporting his decision to leave the country he loved. One particular development that Mark did not like when he compared it with the western economic take-offs was the use of slavery. Starting from the industrial revolution of the mid 1800s to the post WW ll economic take-off across the Atlantic from UK. The previous and current super powers of this world both used slavery to develop their economic advantage. The British Empire ‘outsourced slavery” by colonising countries around the globe and used cheap colonised labours to feed the mother country’s industrial revolution. The US learned from the previous super power and imported slavery to fuel their economic-take offs. Trying to contrast the current economic Chinese take-off and judging it from a western perspective will not contribute to the utopia that Mark is trying to imagine. If we could take history into perspective this list provided by Mark could just as easily be used to characterise previous countries, which experienced their initial economic take-offs a number of centuries ago.
Go to any community, or country or continent, the relentless status grabbing conscious society will exist in all forms. It’s a basic human trait not exclusive to any country or continent and I can bet will exist in every country Mark seeks to finally settle in.
If I were to place a bet on which of the two possibilities above explains Mark’s reason for writing the article, I cannot go past the first one: a pre-cursor to his book number two.
First set expectations from current and potential readers, feed them with a controversial article, polarise opinions and then launch the book. In this way you get three distinct customer base – those who agree, those who do not and those customers who disagrees with each other.
For one I will definitely buy your book Mark. You got me.
helenahr42
Mark Kitto chose to spend his working life in China. Why should he and his Chinese wife assume that it is just fine to come to this country, bringing two young children, and make use of the health service and education system that British workers have paid for through taxation? What have he and his wife contributed to the UK? The UK is awash with foreigners, including vast hordes of Chinese. One my children is at uni and 60% of the students doing the same course are Chinese. It is all utterly mad.
Kastus
2Fred
1. In relation to HK long life under British wasn’t will HK people. Britain just conquered this territory. Nobody asks nobody. So thanks to China hongkogers have Freedom as never before.
2.At first as you said everyone did bad things.
At second what is matter?
3. I didnt know exactly how many churches were destroyed in Tibet. Bad things happened. But many tibetian also shared Marxist ideas. And in Nepal they are popular. And in 1953 China Red Army faced no resisting.
But Scotland was changed completely and lost its historical heritage. The same as many other counties and continents. For example you are speak gaelic arn’t you? Cantonese can and Harbinese can. On the North there are a lot of dialects and languages.
4 Actually I dont have enough information why they committed suicide.
5.You want 50 cases in such rich region like Europe?
6. North Ireland was just example how many clashes can take place if colonization is in proccess. I don’t wanna stand to any side.
7. The most interesting point wich proves that you nonetheless brainwashed.
“But we dont support nightmare North Korea like China does or nightmare African genocidal regimes like China does.”
LOL
Saudi Arabi is much worse regime than North Korea. They have money unlike NK but supress they people very hard. Women there have rights equal animals. It’s simply fascist regime.
And about Africa. The West colonized them for ages, didn’t paid any compensation. And them after parade of Independence they’re just are manipulating their weak government. France takes part in Ruanda genocide not China. USA destabilize Somali not China.
And the worst thing is economical genocide. The USA and Europe are breaking laws about honest competition, usind a lot of subsidies for farmers and killing african economics. They just don’t let african people rise heads.
The Chinese do. And it’s great. Because they give African people jobs. African people get a chance to learn fishing. The West can only give fish – that’s awful.
The West was realizing the same politics in China. Many trade barriers and etc. USA dont wanna honest competition.
The USA all the time manipulate dollar breaking all agreements but accuse that China is manipulator. Funny.
Fred
Hi Kastus,
You make some fair points here. Dont know about giving Africans jobs – Chinese look like they are taking African jobs. Wasnt a CHinese killed by a miner for low pay?
You might be right about africa – Im no expert.
You might be right about Gaelic – but I dont think the English are trying to supress Gaelic or Celtic. They can be studied at Uni and spoken at home. Anyway, I will find out about it more.
One thing you are wrong about – North Korea is much worse than Saudi. You cannot leave North Korea. North Korea has famines. North Korea monitor mobile phones. Read about North Korean labour camps written by North Koreans.
So, the only points on which I completely disagree with you is
1. everyone is interested in politics in one way or abother and you have no right to patronise Chinese people and deny this
2. North Korea is a nightmare regime with much less freedom than Saudi, where women now can drive cars, for example.
3. Languages fall into disuse. I dont see Scottish complaining about Celtic.
4.And you are full of BS. You totally ognore all the negative aspects of China, like people burining themseives over local government land eviction and make out that this happens in Europe. But then you cant give examples.
Just forget it. China is going through an industrial revolution now. So its understandable. I agree with the last poster. Slavery and studd all happened in Europe 200 years ago, now they are happening in CHina now.Its normal. YOur industrial revolution came late.
Fred
Kastus, no doubt Saudi Arabia has extremely poor human rights. But its people can leave the country and are not starving – plus women can drive now, so things are improving!!! Amputations, executions, stonings (in poorer areas in villages in Iran for example) all exist and are heavily criticized by US and Europe. US DOES oppose Taliban etc and this is one example of religious fundamentalism that causes this misery.
Yes it does trade with Saudi but it does with CHina and other countries too. It needs the oil. It refuses to be poor – ok – it’s a cynical motive but US is no angel.Saddam was supported early on and he fell out of favour for cynical reasons. I agree with you on that.
[edit] Human Rights SituationThe human rights situation in the camp is described in detail by Lee Soon-ok in her testimony to the United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary. She explains how the prisoners have no rights and how they are treated at the mercy of the guards.[5]
[edit] Slave LaborThe prisoners are forced to work around 18 hours per day at the camps factories. If someone does not work quickly enough, he or she is beaten. Sometimes prisoners sleep at their workplaces to fulfill the production quota. All this involves frequent work accidents and many prisoners are crippled from the work or from torture. [6]
[edit] Diseases/HygienicsThe prisoners have to sleep crowded with 80 – 90 people in 30 m² (300 square feet) flea infested rooms. They are only occasionally allowed to use the toilet (one for about 300 people) and may only take a shower after several months. Most diseases like paratyphus result from the bad nutrition.[7]
[edit] MalnutritionFood rations are 100 grams of broken corn three times a day and a salt soup. In case of rule violations food rations are reduced. Lee Soon-ok reported that prisoners even killed rats and ate them raw in order to survive.[8]
[edit] TortureThere are 78 punishment cells in the camp, each 60 cm (24 inches) wide and 110 cm (43 inches) high, where prisoners are locked up several days. Afterwards many of them are unable to walk and some even die from this. Prisoners are often beaten, kicked or whipped. Lee Soon-ok was tortured being forced to drink a large quantity of water until she fainted (water torture) and almost died from this. During her sentence she witnessed many types of torture.[9]
[edit] InfanticidesPregnant women are forced to have abortions by injections. Lee Soon-ok witnessed babies still born alive being killed directly at birth.[10]
[edit] ExecutionsAgain and again (eight times in 1988) there are public executions in the prison yard in front of all prisoners.[11]
[edit] Prisoners (Witnesses)Lee Soon-ok (1987–1992 in Kaechon) was imprisoned on alleged embezzlement of state property, when she refused to put material on the side for her superior. She was sentenced to 13 years in a prison camp, but released earlier under a surprise amnesty.[12]
Ji Hae-nam (1993–1995 in Kaechon) was imprisoned on disruption of the socialist order, as she sang a South Korean pop song and was denunciated by a neighbor. She was sentenced to 3 years in a prison camp, but released after 2 years and 2 months.[13]
On the other hand,look at North Korea:
helenahr42
2Fred –
You are poorly informed if you believe that women are allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. They are not. Some brave Saudi women are challenging the ludicrous religious edict that has banned them from driving. The great men of religion think that driving will tempt women into sex, promote pornography and create more homosexuals! Golly! I do hope that someone has told the Saudi ruler, King Abdullah, that his great friend, HM Queen Elizabeth, is an accomplished female driver. It is all very worrying.
Fred
It is indeed very worrying.I’m sure they had one or two chats about it.
Many Western women resent the sexism of Saudi males. I do for sure.
I also hope China can include some more women in its Politburo,. more than zero.
And I also hope that Chinese will realise that North Korea is the most evil threatening power in the world.
But China is much better with regard to women. Someone told me that they were allowed to drive now. Well, I apologise if that isnt true.
It is a bad situation and I have even told Saudis to their fact that it isnt acceptable in a pub in Nanjing lol (The Blue Sky pub)
I hope you and other Chinese will wake up about North Korea. Read about its labour camps, and Chinese laogai.
But I respect and salute Chinese success.It deserves it.
Kastus
“And I also hope that Chinese will realise that North Korea is the most evil threatening power in the world”.
You are repiting stuid slogans from mass-media all the time.
North Korea looks very sadly in comparison to its neigbors.
But it is far from evil threatening power in the world. NK didn’t start any war. Famine is a real problem. But there are a lot of countries in Asia (Bangladesh, Laos) and Africa (many) which have exactly the same problems and mach worse. But in NK 90% responsibility for this situation is on blocade from some countries.
But I don’t wanna continue discussion which country is worse.
Just ask why do you accuse China? China don’t sell weapon to NK, don’t dictate any politics, don’t have any troops on NK territory (like USA in Saudy Arabia). China just protect provide, provide no war politics in own border.
And finally thanks to China NK is changing. Many people from NK are crossing the border and doing business now.
Fred
Okay, US shouldnt apply sanctions to an already starving nation. However, North Korea is protected by China. If it wasnt, this agressive sabre-rattling country would have been regime-changed years ago.
Every month North Korea threatens either US or South Korea. Your newspapers are fifty times more propagandized than ours. You even have a propaganda department in your government. In fact, the guy who revealed the milk scandal resigned last month, refusing to work for China news – because the papers would refuse to publish his controversial stories in case the people get offended.
North Korea is theoretically still fighting South Korea and has sunk its ships and killd at least 45 people in the last two years. North Korea is building up nuclaer weapons and testing them to ready itself for an invasion,as it constantly threatens to do so.
North Korea does not believe in human rights.
No-one is alloweed to leave North Korea without special permission. Thousand get shot every year for trying to escape into China and China hunts them down, China colludes with slave regime North Korea.
North Korea is very poor but in its benefit, it does have high literacy.However, if you are caught singing a South Korean song or reading something disagreeable – you will face terrible punishment, such as five yeaers in concentration camp.
Fred
ANyway, I’m sorry Kastus. If you want to find out about North Korea, please dont follow the GOVERNMENT LINE -as you always do. I MYSELF FOLLOW NO LINE,NOT MY COUNTRY:S MEDIA (which often says very very good things about China I might add) NOT THE US MEDIA (which often says very very good things about CHina and self-criticizes often, the mark of a free ctrountry.)
Howver, there was a vote in Hing Kong. The majority voted against Patriotism Class being mandatory in Hong Kong because the Hong Kong people argued this was brainwashing. It’s a fact. If you dont beleive me, go to Hong Kong as ask the people there or check the voting register.
AS for me, Kastus, I am for a properous China. You see me above arguing with Westerners about teh Opium War. I take the CHina line.
So dont pigeopn hole me into ‘brainwashing Western media jockey’ because the show doesnt fit. You just hurt yourself if you do that.
Fred
ANyway, I’m sorry Kastus. If you want to find out about North Korea, please dont follow the GOVERNMENT LINE -as you always do. I MYSELF FOLLOW NO LINE,NOT MY COUNTRY:S MEDIA (which often says very very good things about China I might add) NOT THE US MEDIA (which often says very very good things about CHina and self-criticizes often, the mark of a free ctrountry.)
Howver, there was a vote in Hing Kong. The majority voted against Patriotism Class being mandatory in Hong Kong because the Hong Kong people argued this was brainwashing. It’s a fact. If you dont beleive me, go to Hong Kong as ask the people there or check the voting register.
AS for me, Kastus, I am for a properous China. You see me above arguing with Westerners about teh Opium War. I take the CHina line.
So dont pigeopn hole me into ‘brainwashing Western media jockey’ because the shoe doesnt fit. You just hurt yourself if you do that.
Fred
Bottim line is, Kastus, The Hong Kong people voted against studying Patriotism Class or Chinese guoxue.
There is nothing you can say. It is a fact. A scientific fact. They said it was brainwashing. So it’s not me! It’s the Hong Kong people.
Now, as much as I would like to improve your English, I have nothing more to say.
If you want, you can pay me. But you will have to vist another country and broaden your mind. Try North Korea. Maybe the labour camps there.. (By the way, I charge 250 RMB an hour)
Kastus
Fred, I am very happy for your wage rate in China.
Despite my poor English, I am not Chinese. And my native media are so bad so I don’t believe them since the Childhood. I just read news from many sources and ask why this or another event have happened.
Relax about the Opium war. I don’t think that Chinese blame you or Britain. It was long ago in the past. It’s enough that you are not proud of it (when I was to London I don’t like seeing many stolen artifacts – but it is just my personal impression, maybe I am not right). And Britich aren’t real reason why this shit happened. Real reason is China’s Weakness. But the Opium war is just good reminder what is the price of western suggestions and principles.
At last I want to say everyone is brainwashed in a varying degree. Because when we are born we don’t have any objective information. We absorb it whole life. And everyone biased, everyone has a lot of stereotypes. It depends on many points. Education, age, nationality, personality, access to different information and ability critically work with it. The last is the most important.
In the whole History there are just two methods ruling people – dictate (conviction) and manipulation. Dictate is much more popular (is used at work, families, army and etc) because it is simplier. But manipulating is much more sophisticated and off course by far effective. It is used by religion, cheaters and democracy. Using it you can let people to believe that they voluntarily want to do something.
You can say it’s untrue. There a lot of free counties where people can do what nobody but only they want. But it is fairytale. Because at first people want to believe in something and someone. At second don’t have enough qualification to make right choice. For example now in American elections people don’t know the most of points candidates programs (they have no time and interest). So no wonder that in USA result of voting I always in borders 45-55 and next nothing changes. So we have 95% of populists in the heads of western states. And we don’t know who is real rulers, who are behind. For example Berlusconi – the most popular PM of Italian history who lead his country to economical collapse. And now non-elected Monti corrects his mistakes.
I don’t want to say democracy is bad. No way. Actually Democracy also use dictate methods. The Law of any state is anthem of dictatorships. So both methods have advantages and disadvantages. Anyway you have to use combination.
State it’s like a child. In some points you have to be dictator, in another you can give opportunity for own choice. But you know that you can affect to your child to make right choice. If you don’t do this, his bad friend can affect and etc. Back to state, government also can consider that influence from other states also can be positive or negative. The Opium war is good reminder.
Fred
Your English is pretty good. I believe you are wrong about most people not caribg about pokitics. But sometimes people give up because it seems that no party has anything unique to offer. But parties,voting and politics, again, can affect
1. School fees
2. Whether a country goes to war or not
3. Whether health care is free or insurance-based
4. And a range of other issues
People have to be interested in policy and political issues because they are affected.
Confucius used to argue that ( which most Communists argue today) that the Government is the parent and the citizen the child. I find this view patronizing and inimical to democratic consciousness.
North Korea constantly threatens to invade the world, South Korea or both. .
I dont trust Western media, so I go with Youtube. On Youtube, you see the truth. Not read.
Also, I speak good Chinese. So I ask theChinese. And most Chinese tod me tgey didnt like the Chinese government. One guy said he wanted US to invade China and beat them. No joke.
Local government in China very very greedy and corrupt.
Believe me Kastus, Imnot stupid. AIDS was spread in Chinaby local government greed and ‘face’. Read what the Chinesedoctor said, the one who discoveredthe AIDS epidemic inChina.
You say no system is perfect,but democracy is the best. England is far freerthan most countries. I know it. But if Im wring, then Ill accept it.
Kastus
Local government in China is corrupted. I can’t believe it )
Where local government isn’t corrupted? In India, USA, South Korea? Or in Britain?
If Britain is so good why are you not there? Why are you in China?
Fred
Yes, India is highly corrupt. Local government in Britain is not that corrupt.
Anyway, I studied Politics A Level twenty years ago, we had to write questions on whether our civil service was polticised, our news media biased ( the press is left,right wing and neutral pending on the paper) and our government a dictatorship. Many study this A Level.
If you didnt know local government is corrupt inChina, please let me alone. I left China already. I was there for five years.
What do u think the Bo Xilai case was idiot?
Kastus
I think corruption is something ordinary for developing country (in Britain on local level situation no doubt better. Even much better than in USA. But on state level – i am not sure. For example invasion to Iraq costed a lot of lifes seems like result of lobbying from oil companies).
So. Britain is by far rich, developed, democratic, non-corrupted and etc. Why you are not there now? I just can’t understand your motivation.
Fred
I never said England was richer. It isnt. I said Hong Kong voted against being brainwashed by China. Maybe I dont want to live in England. Maybe I like corrupt countries. Maybe they dont affect me. Maybe Im interested in China and like living there. Maybe I dont.
Maybe you will never understand because you know NOTHING about China or North Korea or me. But you arrogantly call mebrainwashed when the issue is
Hong Kong is a great country and refused to. e brai washed by bully China.
Fred
I never said England was richer. It isnt. I said Hong Kong voted against being brainwashed by China. Maybe I dont want to live in England. Maybe I like corrupt countries. Maybe they dont affect me. Maybe Im interested in China and like living there. Maybe I dont.
Maybe you will never understand because you know NOTHING about China or North Korea or me. But you arrogantly call mebrainwashed when the issue is
Hong Kong is a great country and refused to. e brain washed by bully China.
Fred
I never said England was richer. It isnt. I said Hong Kong voted against being brainwashed by China. Maybe I dont want to live in England. Maybe I like corrupt countries. Maybe they dont affect me. Maybe Im interested in China and like living there. Maybe I dont.
Maybe you will never understand because you know NOTHING about China or North Korea or me. But you arrogantly call mebrainwashed when the issue is
Hong Kong is a great country and refused to be brain washed by bully China.
Fred
I never said England was richer. It isnt. I said Hong Kong voted against being brainwashed by China. Maybe I dont want to live in England. Maybe I like corrupt countries. Maybe they dont affect me. Maybe Im interested in China and like living there. Maybe I dont.
Maybe you will never understand because you know NOTHING about China or North Korea or me. But you arrogantly call me brainwashed when the issue is
Hong Kong is a great country and refused to be brain washed by bully China.
Kastus
So in HK you earn more money than in UK. It’s normal.
HK in comparing to China is a state like Monaco in comparing to France. Many europeans want to live in Monte-Carlo.
But I think I know enough about China. I ve been to 10 different cities.
I also speak Chinese. And can say just one thing: as Madonna sing – you only see what your eyes want to see.
I was in Britain too. I can’t say I ve conversated a lot about politics with local people. But I felt that British also very critical for their government, struggling for many things. Inability to buy house, fear lose job, competition from immigrants, high prices, lack of perspectives and inability to influence on govmt also.
Is it untrue?
Actually how long have you lived in mainland China?
Fred
Are you saying I only see what my eyes want to see?
Alex
Come across this article accidentally and found that it is long but amusing to read. Me, as a HK people grow up in HK and went to UK to complete my first degree, then back to HK and worked over 10+ years, got my master degree there and now working in China before I spent over 10 years to work with my Chinese colleagues. I think I could say something to “harmonize” the conversation between Fred, Kastus and the others.
Somehow, I read the full long article which is rare to HK people because we love short and quick stories in Chinese(Traditional). I share some of the viewpoints from the author. I am not going back to the history that before 1997 but just to share some of my recent observations.
The “$$” value that mentioned by the author is serious. It is important to the mainland Chinese. If you goto Taiwan, you will easily find that people’s priority is not on $. Of course many mainland Chinese are still very nice and kind, before you two encountered any conflicts in $.
Back to the view point of the HKers. I didn’t goto protests which does not meant that I do not “care”. And I am sure a lots of my friends are the same. HKers are less proactive to be involved in politic because they just care about $. So 100,000 people protests is a big number.
As a HKer, I am just worry that HK will become another Tibet. Today, the ex-officer assigned by China government to HK before 1997 already said that those HKers who not happy should give up the HK ID card. The history is repeating. China is exporting mainland Chinese to HK, acquiring the medias including newspaper, TV and ratio stations and etc. The traditional HKers are being diluted very quickly, traditional Chinese are replacing by simplified Chinese and no more accurate pronounced HK Cantonese.
Fred
Thankyou. Now, Kastus, maybe youll stop annoying me and actually listen. As opposed to calling me brainwashed.
So, straight from the horses mouth. It takes a guy who was actually born in Hong Kong, lived in the UK and lived in China for ten years to finally confirm what many Hong Kong have already told me.
But Kastus will still probably call me brainwashed, Because hes so smart!!!
Fred
The British did not necessarily create the democracy kf Hong Kong, but in response to he people of Hong Kong themselves. I dont know if the British would have themselves given Hong Kong a reasonable Welfare System if the people hadnt campaigned for it, But, at least we listened. And we had our moments of brutality in1967.
But China wont listen unless there is a mass demonstration. Because China doesnt hve democracy in the blood. It has plutocracy and fascism in the blood. It is the ultimate Empire.Te Communists still regard themselves as a Dynasty. 600,000 people can vote in local elections in China now. But American NGOs campaigned for that until Li Peng stopped it.
Fred
Kastus, like most pro-government liners, is. blissfully ignorant of North Korea and wait..
he can’t believe that Chinese local government is actually corrupt! Even after Bo Xilai and illegal and grabs!!!
And he blames UK for being dishonest by finding an excuse to invade Iraq, even after Saddam gassed thousands of kurds to death and starting burning oil. Ask Tony Blair today, he says he would still invade today.
Fred
Ahhh! illegal land grabs..
It’s not that your English is bad Kastus. It’ s just that you are an a hole. That guy just agreed on the obvious: 100,000 is a large number. Now, why couldn’t you do that fifteen posts ago? Do you not understand politics or the concept of a number?
Because you have a big chip on your shoulder? Not my problem.
Fred
Just ask yourself, Kastus, did I study Politics for two years? Have I lived in China for five years (you probably qualify) and have I studied Philosophy for four years? How many languages do I speak?
Then you can come on this forum and point the finger.
But now, what you should be asking yourself is
‘ Am I a good use of a qwerty board, oxygen and space? ‘
Only because you made the Hong Kong guy come out of the closet.
Kastus
Fred: “It has plutocracy and fascism in the blood”
And one more question for asking yourself “Are you still think that you are not brainwashed?”
Kastus
To facture
Fred, “HKers are less proactive to be involved in politic because they just care about $” – Alex said, not me.
“The traditional HKers are being diluted very quickly, traditional Chinese are replacing by simplified Chinese and no more accurate pronounced HK Cantonese” – it’s reasonable. But it is the world’s tendency not unique for China.
I gave comparison China – HK, France – Monaco. Monaco politically maybe has more independence. But in cultural aspects monegasks lose their identification as other french little nations.
So it’s question of cultural strenght of HKrs. Nothing more.
Kastus
“I studied Philosophy for four years…”
Philosophy as other sciences requires much more time to be studied. Maybe whole life is not enough.
Especially for human like you who allows yourself so undeniable and the same time naive approvals.
I can arguing a lot about every points. For example about so honest Tony Blair who is with pleasure working for “non-corrupted” Kazakhstan’s govmt.
Maybe you really think that the Britain joined US invasion to Iraq because majority of British vote for this. Not because Britain is just US satellite.
Its good for you that you don’t feel any responsibility for killing many thousands people in Iraq for 10 years.
It’s was joke that I don’t believe in Corruption in China. As I said Corruption is everywhere. It’s an ordinary phenomenon especially inherent for developing counties. Coz when economical environment, style of life are changing, laws are getting outdated it’s always a big challenge.
There were plenty of corruption scandal in S.Korea, Taiwan, HK too. Anyway in India, Russia and in many many other countries situation is definitely no better. Corruption is very interesting phenomenon. For example in the EU corruption connects with bureaucracy and etc. I can take a long lecture about it but…
Fred
Well done. And loved your joke. Hilarious.
Tony
How are they brainwashed? The ignorance that I have seen in China is astounding, though it is changing thanks to the internet and the ability to access information sources. It astounds me that we find it fine to openly discuss the wrongs of our own country yet Chinese can at times cry and get offended so easily if you discuss issues that foreigners see. NO PLACE IS PERFECT but debate can bring positive change
Mark Newham
Tony – How true. While westerners have little trouble with the authorities when criticising or makiing fun of policies or politicians, the Chinese have no truck with such behaviour. That’s why they banned my book ‘Limp Pigs’ there for daring to tweak the tiger’s tail.
PS to Sifan – Thanks for pointing out that Article 35 of the PRC Constitution enshrines the right of Chinese citizens to free speech. But your comment might have carried more weight had you also included reference to Article 51 which states: ‘The exercise by citizens of the People’s Republic of China of their freedoms and rights may not infringe upon the interests of the state, of society and of the collective, or upon the lawful freedoms and rights of other citizens.’ Hah. Gotcha.
Tobias W.
The reality of Communist Party rule in China is now very obvious thanks to their party meeting:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/07/opinion/in-china-unwelcome-at-the-party.html
This may only concern known critics of the one party rule, but other restrictions apply to everybody in Beijing as well, such as having to register in a written form whenever you enter a cab. Or registering to buy kitchen knifes and other idiotic rules.
My take on this is that with more emancipation of the common citizen, the party gets more nervous because in their heart they know their rule is illegal and they are crooks, only after enriching themselves.
Fred
Of course it’s illegal. Thank you for saying what most are too cowardly to say.
Tony
The plundering of sovereign wealth by communist party leaders is another issue that I feel does not receive enough attention. You only have to see the amounts of money that are invested in foreign countries buy the children of these party officials and the vehicles and houses they live in at the expense of the Chinese citizens. This certainly was not what the great Chairman Mao had envisaged if sure.
Fred
Have you personally seen them? I agree with you.
Tony
A property at Wolseley Road Sydney was sold recently for $32.4 million to Jiang Mei, the wife of Zeng Wei, the son of Zeng Qinghong, a former influential vice-president of China. A tidy little sum I wonder how they made their money? The shear Hippocracy of the of the communist leaders and their families.
Roger
The Righteousness of God Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Vin
XiaoMo: “Unfortunately, the CCP loves propaganda and it works. Chinese people have responded to it very well. Unfortunately most are not even able to consider the alternative, and they expect the rest of the world to believe what they believe.”
Tony: “How are they brainwashed? The ignorance that I have seen in China is astounding, ”
I think all you guys make very good points. I have been shocked to realize to what extent propaganda really does have a deep effect on even the most educated chinese people. I find this deeply disturbing. I now have a chinese boyfriend for 2 years and while love each other very much, it is undeniable that political discussions have been more than awkward. I have been torturing myself trying to remain open to the idea that, as a westerner, I may also be somewhat the product of “western propaganda”. Yet no matter how much I want to remain open to me being somewhat subject to “anti-chinese biased media”, it is hard to accept. Of course, daily life is more than politics, and it could be possible to ignore and downplay those worldview differences, but at some point it does me make it hard to understand or respect each other’s views. For you guys who obviously have dealt with those people who have kind of an “us versus the mean westerners” mindset, how do you approach them? Is there hope that they might realize how much they have been manipulated? Any thoughts welcome!
Not easy
Vin:
There isn’t any panacea for cross cultural relationships, no more than for a one-culture relationship. However, I must admit adding a different culture into the mix increases opportunities to learn about each other – or if you look at it negatively, could add more fuel to potential conflicts.
I am not sure whether your partner is a China/Chinese or overseas/chinese. The former being those born and lived in China before emigrating and the latter those that were born outside China.
There are definitely clear differences in attitude and upbringing between them.
I read a great ebook about the challenges that a cross-culture brings to a relationship. Check it out., its called The Yellow Banana
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/98306
The ebook explores the life story of an Asian student in a western university in the 70s. This might give you an insight to the challenges Asian migrants face in a western society.
Good luck.
Fred
There are a couple of things. One is the Chinese idea that human rights are not universal,but comes from merit. Or being rich. We don’t like this idea but they don’t believe in equality.
Secondly, we did use them as slaves in world war one,some 250,000 of them.
Thirdly, see El Salvador and Missing by Stone and Gavras. The Western government,namely US are undeniably evil. And very arrogant. They look down on the poor outside the US.
Waiguoren
The problem of human rights is real for all nations, but it has a distinct weight in countries such as China where the appeal to human rights is utterly cut off from the question of what the rights appealed to are grounded in. What is the moral/legal code of today’s China standing on? What is its recognized foundation? Surely no Heavenly order of things, and no God. More likely to be a national will fueled and channeled by tyrannical oligarchs. Freedom grounded in unfreedom? Naturally, a farce without humor. Freedom treated as cash.
Fred
Very well put about the human rights issues. The problem is not that China is the worst offender at all. Its more to do with the fact they have a get out clause asSifan pointed out,their constitution protects freedom of speech provided it doesn’t annoy the guvnors, be they local or central. Back jails are used to prevent those who desire redress from being vocal,in practical terms,reaching Beijing. Otherwise the local a Res may be demoted. Hence their common practice of employing Mafia.
99% of cases against the government have lost.
It is a veneer, designed to silence the critics. Rape laws are flimsy too,to name but one crime.
Sifan64
Lord Koos
Your view is certainly widespread but it’s not based on a detailed knowledge of history. Your comparisons with modern day drug cartels are simplified and facile. It’s easy to lump all drugs and drug traffic together but it’s not accurate, for the following reasons;
1. Modern drug cartels do not deal in opium. They deal in stronger and more addictive opiates such as heroin.
2. There are no legitimate purposes for the supply of these illegal narcotics, because these days there are many alternative painkillers available; in those days opium was the only strong painkiller readily available.
3. Possession and supply of heroine is strictly prohibited in all countries today apart from medical purposes; in the 19th-century possession of opium was legal in both Britain and China.
The opium war was China’s attempt to reduce the international supply, not prohibit opium, it did not tackle Chinese domestic production of opium until 70 years later. It’s a bit like as if the present British government suddenly banned the import of alcohol while allowing it to be manufactured and consumed within the UK.
Sifan64
Vin
I think that you should both try to see each other’s point of use by reading more books and becoming more aware of the background to the issues about which you disagree, that way you can have more informed discussions about these issues and may find some common ground.
Good luck!
The Lord Ben
I would point this out, what happens to the mountain lion if you keep feeding it? Go figure,
Fred
Lord Ben, you are not easy to understand but imlistening
bhaskar
i have never visited china but now that I see an outsider view of china , I still do not understand how chinese have graduated themselves to rule this world by sheer level of confidense.. hats off to chinese rulers who foresaw and made china a super power.
SBD
Chinese Citizen abroad!
How would you feel if by chance all the Chinese people who reside in western countries
would be ask to go back to China and give the people of those western countries a peace of mind. I wish to remind you all that there are thousands and thousands of Chinese ( I happen to know many of them ) who left China by ways of marrying a foreigner NOT for LOVE but they could never make it in China with earing of 2000rmb a month. We wstern countries support your Chinese citizens. Giving them money. education. health care for free etc…. What do they give us in China ?
Fred
The most nationalistic attitudes comes from huaren or Chinese living abroad.
Chinese generally think they have a moral right to use the West because we used them mercilessly.
This is true, but the Western way still saved China from Mao. That is my belief. Mao be ame popular because of a backlash against imperialism. Communism was just a prop.
So..it isnt water under the bridge. And to be honest, even up to WWOne we were treating Chinese like slaves. Should we deny the past?
Fred
SBD please take up this debate with Kastus.
Kastus
Oh. Discussion is still not over.
Fred. Do you think is it just about the past?
Look at Israel, Iraq, Afganistan, Libia, Saudi Arabia and its wahabbit missioners who create panice in North half of Africa.
The West and his satellites still kill people everywhere.
The USA have army troops all over the world.
Do you think imperialism is ended?
For example, Senkaku/ Diaoyudao islands.
It is not Japan who created this problem. It is the USA. They didnt return islands to China and gave them to agressor in WW2.
Its funny when Chinese accuse Japanese. Japanese simply dont have right to vote. The USA are deciding everything. And Britain is also USA satellit.
Divide et impera!
The USA steal qualified people from whole world because they have dollar. The USA print dollars and spread inflation to whole planet. 300-mln country imposed dollar as world currence for 7-bln world. Its basic of theys power. Its economical Piramide. But it is ending. This sithuation caused current crisis. But the world is changing.
Asia will rule the world. Especially China. Anyway. I hope it will be the better world.
Fred
Kastus, i dont like you. Because of your silly debating style and extreme bias. And youre stupid,jumping to conclusions with people you dont know.
But you may be right on some points.
Please do me a favour. Im no expert.
Reply to SBDs point. Much better debate there.
Ann
I would like to join your discussion. Dear, native Chinese, British, American! I can understand your bad attitude to each other, because of heritage that you got after long-term history conflicts. Let’s be more democratic! More kind to each other, people who wrote comments on this site didn’t take part in it! State boundaries cannot deter people of moving around the world any more! We live in new era!
Daniel Cox
It seems many have quite strong views on this article. I can only say that for myself (having lived & worked for ten years in a different Asian country), the move I recently made back home was for exactly the same reasons. In my humble opinion, this article is one of the most honest reflections that, very respectfully, highlights difficult mindset problems throughout Asia which, although understandable to a degree, do not reflect the reality that many Asian people have successfully relocated to the west – with full citizenship and rights, whereas for a westerner to attempt this in most Asian countries is normally impossible because of mindset and actual strict local law.
jd0033
Had a good reading indeed. I’m a Chinese living in Paris with my French husband, and we visited Moganshan in 2009 before leaving my country.
It is sad indeed that you feel a bit abandoned after so much deep motion towards the country you love. But at the same time, not everyone understands that we are all the same inside despite that we are born without any choice into different countries and different races.
Just been in London, I like the rich culture here in the UK and in France, but I don’t expect more than I should, I like France, but I won’t be French… Take care
Sometimes it doesn’t matter what other people say about you and about your opinions, you told us because you believe you are among us and that you talk about China just like you would talk about Europe, and I hope others will not always relate your comments to your face.
Fred
Thays true Ann. I often try and see the Chinese perspective. But im afraid that the CCP perspective is not always the China perspective. As 100,000 protesting Hong Kong people amply demostrated,much to the chagrin of Kastus, who would have it that all Cantonese fall in line with the Han idoctrinating philosophy of plutocracy and unbridled power.
Fred
Thats true Ann. I often try and see the Chinese perspective. But im afraid that the CCP perspective is not always the China perspective. As 100,000 protesting Hong Kong people amply demostrated,much to the chagrin of Kastus, who would have it that all Cantonese fall in line with the Han idoctrinating philosophy of plutocracy and unbridled power.
Byard Pidgeon
So much of this article is hilarious, if one substitutes “USA” or “American” for far too many of the references to “China” or “Chinese”.
Here’s a great one: “Leadership contenders might think, and here I hypothesise, that once they are in position they can show their “true colours.” Too late they realise that will never be possible.”
Go ahead, kids…have fun reading the article again and making these fun, simple changes…a laugh riot for you and your friends!
Dan
That was the very first thing that struck me and yours is the first comment I have read to point that out, though others have alluded to the illusion of freedom here in the “democratic” West.
Also it has been pointed out that we all carry our own bias and perspective into any argument, particularly a political one which by its very nature polarizes opinion.
All nations have their problems, true? Of course, and surely that means we can depoliticise, depolarise the discussion and make it one about human nature?
Why it is that we need “leaders” at all when we all have the same simple human interests? To be content in a safe and peaceful world in which we have an equal say.
All political systems are set up to promote the most ambitious, self serving and frankly sociopathic people possible – just as with any corporation or even any criminal organization the scum rises to the top.
Normal people do not crave control and power over others, only over their own lives. They do not believe they have a divine right to dictate or have any desire to enforce their will upon detractors – they understand that there no one man has the answer as they are not egomaniacs or control freaks, yet these are the people which our political systems promote into power or who simply take power through physical force and become a more transparent dictatorship.
The transparent dictatorship in China is not good, nor is the veiled dictatorship of the banking/corporate sector in the West.
Does this mean we need World government, an end to sovereign nations and the death of nationalism and patriotism?
Does it mean the opposite, that we need proper representative government right down to local levels?
I fear the former, dread the latter and abhor the current mess we are in as a race.
If I had to favour one political ideal over any other it would be the US constitution and bill of rights which is currently being hammered by the new wave of tyranny sweeping across America. (That is a reasonable sign it is worth fighting for)
Maybe it is time we all took more responsibility for own governments and got more actively involved. For example here in the UK it has become more than clear that there is an ever growing divide between the people and its Government (Any party).
It doesn’t matter what colour the flag is, they continue to invade our privacy and private lives with more and more dictatorial zeal.
People have become so brow beaten, apathetic or downright brainwashed they no longer understand the concept that their leaders were elected to serve them – they are our servants who we have supposedly privileged with decision making powers yet they treat us as fools and rub our noses in their corruption.
(This is the opposite of the Chinese communist philosophy that the party is God, which I find sickening on so many levels)
Banks laundering billions in drug money (Nothing new) and no action other than a pay off to other corrupt parties.
The same financiers dominating the Whitehouse executive office after passing through the revolving door between there and Goldman Saxs. The same financiers bankrolling the next Obama and most of the proxy wars.
I could go and on but what’s the use, if we don’t get it by now we never will.
Our leaders are corrupt to the core.
They are groomed and promoted for one purpose only – to ensure that the wealthiest (and truly powerful – their backers) become more wealthy and more powerful.
The last guy who wouldn’t play that game was Kennedy.
pangloss
It’s interesting how experiences of non-Japanese living in Japan are similar to non-Chinese living in China. The similar refrain – “you are not ……therefore you cannot understand us”. A book written in the 90s about Japan – was called the Enigma of Japanese Power. The premise that in the country there is no one who is responsible. Like the imperial palace in the middle of Tokyo – a vast empty space surrounded by a moat. Like Japan, China collectively and as individuals lack self awareness – other awareness.
China has been described as a autistic nation. Poor strategic thinkers – this is a country conquered by backward nomads who ruled it for centuries. It doesn’t learn from other countries, don’t learn other people exist. Doesn’t learn how to negotiate with other people – have back and forth with them – as European culture was formed and Indian culture and most cultures around the world. You have neighbours.
I fear for the future of North Asia.
Waiguoren
Mr. Pangloss’s conflation “China-Japan” eclipses an essential discrepancy: Japan is de facto a political colony of the USA; China is a tyrannical enemy of the USA. Japan survives in the belly of a Leviathan. China affirms itself today as the worst Leviathan on the block. Those migrating to either country ought to heed these distinctions in assessing their respective conditions as foreigners.
sanjay
good
John Ellis
I followed Kitto’s articles for a number of years before cancelling my subscription to Prospect (for other reasons). They were small gems to garnish the wider news stories and glittered with truth. China is authoritarian, full stop. It is, therefore, by definition, going to have to change. The only other authoritarian regime in the world of note is capitalism and the same will happen to that. The buying up of Africa is a serious wake-up call to the world that capitalism under an authoritarian regime is even more dangerous than under a democracy.
One other input to my meagre knowledge of China is the book ‘The Republic of Wine’ by Mo Yan. Frightening.
Hk boy
Would like to share a few thoughts on here, read the article and comments and found it mildly one sided with prominent attack on the east. I was born in hk and grew up, educated and work in the uk. I can say now in my school years I was constantly harassed and a victim of racial abuse for many years.
I have grown up in the ‘west’ so to speak and have family in china/hk of which I also grew up alongside with I visit often and so I have a semi quasi cultural understanding of 2 conflicting ways of life. I can understand how the two systems work and can appreciate why they are like the way they are.
Now that I have explained my position and again any expression is purely my opinion only, I truly believe the real rascists are generally westerners, I know what your going to say, that you have loads of Chinese friends blah blah blah. I think there’s always king to be a minority of genuinely nice people around, if you really believe you are ‘not racist’ and open your arms whole heartily to any culture I think you are in the extreme minority. I have found people to be only anti racists due to political correctness of the west, in the background I have witness and engaged in conversation with friends and work colleague (British) which is 100% racist.
Now, I’m not saying Chinese are all problem free and the goverment is squeaky clean, but who are?!
May I sceptical readers a few events not long ago which provides a fairly solid foundation as to why westerners are seen as ‘outsiders’. Read up about it too as I’m only going to be brief. Oh and by the way these historical events (to the Chinese anyways as it greatly affected the countrys history are not taught in schools in the west, I wonder why…)
Check out the opium war where the British engaged in the biggest illegal drug smuggling campaign in history, selling opium to the Chinese for tea allegedly (actual resource was silver for opium NOT tea as the Britain has no silver mines). When the Chinese robin hoods saw what was doing this they banded together and set fire to the British cargos in all fairness is an illigal trade private buisness Her Majesty send elite naval force and blew the Chinese to smithereens. As a result there was monetary compensation and hk was created and annexed to Britain.
Another event is known as the 8 nation alliance, where countries such as Britain, American, France, Russia, Japan etc to put it bluntly ganged up and raided china During 1900s. Now I know western accounts will start correcting me stating it started with the boxer rebellion etc, really? When the US ‘rebelled’ it was called a revolution? Many ancient Chinese treasures were lost (stolen) during the bloodbath with women and children raped then murdered). the ‘spoils’ of war can be enjoyed by the British people in the British museum to this day. To put it into perspective it’s say similar to modern NATO invading china, unthinkable isn’t it?
The west throughout history with its imperialistic views have conquered all four corners and plundered the world. They’re friends when they see fit and backstabbers then in their interestto do so. I’m giving my own personal view of the west which I’m sure is also many Chineses view as well.
So please next time you think the Chinese are suspicious people and are anti western, spare a few seconds and think why they would think this way.
If I may I would like to use the same arguments as many westerns I’m sure on here which is I too have many British friends, does that make me a true friend or still a racist?
When I engage in deep discussion with regards to these events the reason or ‘excuses’ I regularly get is ‘I didn’t do it, how can I be blamed for somthing done in the past?’ well that’s awfully convenient of the west isn’t it? War crimes, Genova convention?
China has been a relatively friendly race keeping to themselves through history, it is the west that has ‘invaded’ the world so please don’t keep mentioning Tibet Tibet Tibet, isn’t it the British who have shown that British sovereignty isn’t directly related to its region even though Tibet is connected to china, falkland island isn’t though infant on the other side of the Atlantic.
China is the way it is, the west shouldn’t continue it’s imperial crusade to change china (ie definition of imperialism is to attempt to influence another country by either diplomacy or military). This is still happening now and I think the west (majority of public people) loves to turn a blind eye to for example the war in Iraq. In time the world will know similar to the 8 nation alliance invasion what the west did to the middle east starting from the crusades.
Having said all this I do live and work in Britain, pay shed loads of tax but consider myself ‘living here’ and obide by its rules, can the west do the same over say in china? From what I have read on here I don’t think so, mosts comments tend to question why can’t the Chinese be more cooperative and listen and change to ‘our’ system and way of life? Hm
Can I put the people of this board at ease despite chinas military expansion and massive investment in its arms, the Chinese generally are peaceful creatures, I don’t think they have a mastermind plan to take over the world, it’s there as a deterrent to stop historical event from happening again namely foreign invasions, of which I personally believe will happen again, however I hope it wouldn’t.
We should stop meeting each other on the battlefield if there’s a difference and it can’t be settled just leave it, try to be tolerate it which the west loves to preach, perhaps you should adopt your own policies first before criticising others?
At the end we should not be political and keep it as separate entities peacefully engaging in trade and freindship which most of the time in history has worked well. There will always be western values which the Chinese won’t agree on and vice versa, keep it that way and not change it respect it instead.
Peace to everyone, there’s only one earth and we all live on it.
Ps on a personal note from my own experiences. Its not meant to attack or anything so please do not be offended. I find a concept hugely lacking in the west which there is an abundance of in the Chinese and it’s called Honour.
Waiguoren
To “Hk boy”: A great American political paradigm of honor is Abe Lincoln. In modern China (the greatest enemy of pre-modern China), it is Mao Zedong. Makes a hell of a difference!
Now, on the tyranny of ethical relativism:
There is no politics without war (Greek: polemos, akin to polis), just as there is no man without conflict. China has always and continuously been at war (military, economic, etc.) and to claim otherwise is to feed into Maoist propaganda.
The problem is not about how much we fight, but what we fight for! Modern China is NOT fighting for itself, i.e. for its people, but against itself–against its people, the “renmin” who are the masses of “expendable slaves” used by their demagogues to build up a military Leviathan that could compete with “The West” in realpolitik power-games.
In short, modern China is the dark side of Europe without the bright side. (This, of course, is not to say that there are no decent people in contemporary China. However, the decent simply have no public/political outlet. It is the Chinese people who ought to be–and in their political seclusion ARE (as far as the billions of oppressed go)–the first to inveigh against the tyrants subjugating them.
Ric
Over here in the Philippines, we have Chinese ships occupying and claiming ownership over the Scarborough Shoal, which is 220 kilometers away from the Philippines but 840 kilometers away from the nearest Chinese shore. The Chinese believe that they own the entire South China Sea. I don’t think any country’s ever claimed ownership of a sea before.
I read some of the earlier comments saying that China is merely responding to the US “strategic encirclement” of China, implying that the US and China’s neighbors are the ones at fault. These confused commenters have it backwards. The very reason the US and China’s neighbors are trying to contain China in the first place is its arrogant aggression.
The Chinese government is using the same method employed by the Nazis – stir up nationalism and invent an enemy to use as a scapegoat. For the Nazis it was Jews. For the Chinese it’s Japan, Vietnam, the Philippines. The main purpose is to distract the Chinese people from China’s numerous problems – worsening pollution, inhumane working conditions, and most of all, the many, many human rights violations of their nondemocratic government.
A classic technique – divert the populace’s attention from internal problems and focus it on alleged external “enemies.” And the Chinese people, like mindless sheep, are falling for it every time.
I used to think that China would be a better “world leader” than the US. Now I know better. China as it is now is unworthy to lead anything.
Hk boy
Ric,
You clearly don’t know about what the Japanese did to the Chinese during and before ww2. What the Americans/Russians did to Korea. The Chinese are nothing
I’ve the nazis, we don’t exterminate our enemies, we keep them close? Art or war?
To complain about pollution in china is the most ridiculous statement, do you buy made in china goods? Are they cheap? The whole world is building their factories in china, burning massive quantities of coal resulting in co2 etc no problem as long as its not in our country right? What I can’t stand is the west moaning about chinese pollutio and bragging on about how ‘clean’ there countries are, if your so concern about the level of pollution in china why not move the factories to your own country instead? No?! Thought not……
Waiguoren
Addressing Hk Boy’s latest intervention.
Whatever violence the Japanese military applied to Chinese people during the second Sino-Japanese war, it was “peanuts” compared to the violence inflicted by Maoists on millions of their OWN people. (There are plenty of Taiwanese who are still well aware of this.)
No, “the Chinese” (who are they?) do exterminate their enemies–in primis, their own people!
The post I am commenting on is further confirmation of the problems–nay, the delusion–afflicting modern China (pre-modern China’s worst enemy). I am referring especially to a trenchant unwillingness to recognize that the Chinese people should be the first to complain about what “the West” complains about! Addressing with political effectiveness the horrors of spiritual and environmental pollution in China is the Chinaman’s own RIGHT and DUTY. He ought to complain publicly for his own sake, independently of anyone else’s sake. However, instead–under the sway of his technocratic masters–he swears that the real problem, the real enemy is foreigner. Thus, rather than blaming his Chinese Masters for enslaving (or, selling out to foreigners) over two billion Chinese, he blames “the West” (where is that?) for purchasing toys produced by Chinese slaves.
I am afraid that China’s worst enemy is not in America, but in China itself. China’s worst enemy is the Maoist stepson of an expression of “the decline of the West” (namely, Marxism). But lest the Chinaman start again blaming “the West,” let us at once caution him that in its essence, the cancer afflicting modern China is that of tyranny. A band of robbers–no matter how lofty a title he hides behind–is and remains a band of robbers.
A good philological starting point in Chinese self-criticism would entail a replacement of Mao with Mengzi [Mencius], and of the Maoist Kongzi [Confucius] with the anti-Maoist Kongzi.
Perpatetic One
Occidental AND Oriental
The nub of this discussion–and the most pungent criticism imputed by Kitto–is that Chinese society (and Chinese values) are flawed; and that perforce China is unqualified to conduct itself as a world power, is likely to encounter unsuperable socio-economic problems in the coming generation; and is as a polity unable to secure and promote the liberties of its citizens.
This is a big claim. It is in effect questioning the “very being” of the Chinese–their integrity as a people; and even the integrity of their personal relations as those self-same relations are seen to be tainted by the wider cultural order.
The nub of this discussion, then, is as follows: Is China and Chinese culture terminally ill, or is its value system capable of outclassing (or at least co-existing and contrasting with) the occidental value system? Putting this another way: are there distinct Chinese “values” and, if so, are these values strong enough, flexible enough, nimble enough and deep enough to resource a new “China Century” and win currency and respect.
Or are such Chinese values stale, unable to evolve, or evolve fast enough (perhaps even already dead), and therefore at the mercy of the occidental world view which will inexorably replace it in the march of progress?
These are big questions. They are big for the world at large … as China is now well and truly at large in the world.
And they are big questions for every Chinese soul–and soul-searching can be seen in many of the posts here and elsewhere on this topic.
Kitto’s is an historicist–even a determinist–view. And this in itself is the big question for the last 300 years of political thought: is a society and culture such as China’s a victim or prisoner of its very own history; is each Chinese person a victim and prisoner? Is China’s history (read “glorious past”) a dead weight rather than a wellspring of inspiration, thought, example and energy?
Then there comes the question of agency? Is Kitto’s indictment an indictment of a totalitarian state, or a “Chinese” totalitrarian state, or is it an indictment of the state and its people and the animating culture and values of the state and its people … the “Chinese” themselves?
It is hard to tell.
My impression is that KItto’s is a deep and pessimistic view, where he sees the Chinese relishing their history, values and “distinctness” but unwilling to take “the good with the bad” and therefore unable to “assay and question” themselves. And this “closed-ness” leads to a morass of internal (Chinese-to-Chinese) problems; and an inevitable antipathy toward (and even hostility to) outsiders.
WHAT’S 70 YEARS?
This correspondent’s answer to the above–in short form–is that Chinese society and the Chinese soul–is a victim and prisoner of it long history, and that the woes of China and its citizens cannot be put down to 70 years of oppressive one-party statism, or 200 years of benign or bleak colonial occupation.
The crisis in Chinese culture–and it is a crisis–is a crisis in values and social organization that runs deep through its history; and still permeates the life of each Chinese today. It is a crisis compounded, heavily, by the sheer weight of numbers which China now carries and which its leaders must factor.
Here are some of the symptroms of the crisis which all share a common root:
– The supremacy of the Leviathan state (all the way down to the cusp of the last century)
– The intolerance of difference clothed by claims that the Chinese are “indifferent” to the outside world
– Gross disregard for personal privacy
– The supression of the individual in the family unit, to a suffocating extent
– The unchecked authority of the Big Man, and a dispiriting “yes boss” culture worse than the most lame American corporation
– Weak social organization camouflaged, historically, by the long-lived, feudal order and latterly by committees, cadres and the PSB
– Slavish reproduction of outmoded ideas and rituals–many devoid of their original true meanings
– Mawkish harkening to the “history’s greats” with little delight in, and celebration of, “the new” in arts and letters
– Poor aesthetic sensibility for, or custodianship of, any area, street or resource which might be called a “common good” (a la environmental vandalism)
– Weak self-restraint masked by rigid norms of behavior albeit immediatley honored in the breach whenever possible
All of these well-known aspects of the Chinese style have common roots :
– the inability to equitably share power at all levels in all ways
– the want of trust as a strong social bond uninfected by “relationships and connections”
– fatalism and negativity generally; and a feeling that freedom is always the portent of chaos.
It is invariably claimed in discussions of Chinese culture and values that “the Occident” is characterized by rampant individualism and that the “Orient” is collectivist and in this sense morally superior in its social order.
But in fact it is the other way around: the constructs of Chinese society through the ages have bound and limited the citizen and individual so closely that the opportunity to be a moral actor is heavily circumscribed; whereas the occidental tradition has through a bitter dialectic (of success … and bitter failure) carved out a large space for the individual regulated by a web of laws and conventions which are largely consistent, able to adapt, and subject to criticism and repair.
And it is this self-same dynamic which the Occident has struggled long and hard with–the universal human quest for authentic and free action–that in fact fuels and animates the rampant, feckless and unpleasant examples of excessive individualiam that seem to flourish in most corners of a China (and in Chinese states like Singapore) where propserity rises and within a politics where rules bend or disappear or change at whim. Kitto alludes to some in his piece.
[It is noteworthy that with advances in prenatal medicine Singapore now manifests the exact-same sex imbalance that China is cursed with, and that sex delineation is to be banned in Canada as the infux of Chinese has led to a stark rise in sex selection among pregnancies. What is this practice if not "prisonerhood of history", "the Big Man culture", and a "rampant and excessive individualism" and a consumerism of the most banal kind?]
The Chinese soul (writ large) is poorly tempered to the price and prize of freedom–and this is the crisis at the heart of China’s inevitable rise; and the challenge that hundreds of millions of ordinary and thoughful Chinese (including its netizens) grapple with every day in the search for meaning and happiness in life.
tony p
Perpatetic (sic) one: best comment yet. Trenchant but accurate, and very insightful.
Dan
Yes that was an excellent read.
David
Ming, nice rant! David R
KopyKatKiller
What’s the solution? Change the programming. Banish all spoken and written forms of Chinese and free the Chinese people in the process? Maybe, yes! It is my solution at least…
David Murphy
We have the same problem with sex selection in the UK in the peoples from the Indian sub-continent
Phil
As a very recent returnee to Canada from having lived in China for several years, I applaud your effort to distill and describe for the Western audience, quintessential China.
All of us commenting would like to “nail” the issue with some tour de force statement, but we are dealing with the human condition as it plays out in different cultures, and so I believe such a summing up is impossible. While I agree with most if not all of your sentiments and observations, I believe that there is a still deeper perspective that is needed for true understanding.
My personal experiences in China ranged from the sublime to the truly frightening, but that’s not to say many other countries on earth couldn’t have offered up the same range.
What I remember the most from living there in recent times are the many wonderful people whom I met. They give me hope that China will expand its extremely rapid development to include all fronts, especially human rights and fair government, at all levels within their society. That will result in their becoming a trusted global partner in our combined efforts to improve the world.
One cautionary statement made to me often by some of my Chinese professional colleagues: China has lost its moral compass over the past thirty years. While no nation in the West can claim to have fully retained theirs either, the “I win, you lose” mentality I found virtually everywhere in the business and political world has to be countered with genuine “cooperation” (so often offered but not delivered in China) that will hopefully result in true “win/win” interactions in the future.
The hope I have for the United States, UK, and all other nations, including my own Canada, is that we too, will continue our evolution in all areas. While we Westerners have made great strides over the past several centuries, we can’t look down our noses at the Chinese simply because their path, style and timing is different than ours. With some patient understanding with one another, hopefully we can all make the necessary adjustments and contributions needed to live in harmony and fulfillment.
May God bless us all and help us to reach that goal
Phil
PO
As a very recent returnee to Canada from having lived in China for several years, I applaud your effort to distill and describe for the Western audience, quintessential China.
All of us commenting would like to “nail” the issue with some tour de force statement or statements, but we are dealing with the complex “human condition” as it plays out in different cultures, and so I believe such a summing up is impossible. While I agree with most if not all of your sentiments and observations, I believe that there is a still deeper perspective that is needed for true understanding.
My personal experiences in China ranged from the sublime to the truly frightening, but that’s not to say many other countries on earth couldn’t have offered up the same range.
What I remember the most from living there in recent times are the many wonderful people whom I met. They give me hope that China will expand its extremely rapid development to include all fronts, especially human rights and fair government, at all levels within their society. That will result in their becoming a trusted global partner in our combined efforts to improve the world.
One cautionary statement made to me often by some of my Chinese professional colleagues: China has lost its moral compass over the past thirty years. While no nation in the West can claim to have fully retained theirs either, the “I win, you lose” mentality I found virtually everywhere in the business and political world has to be countered with genuine “cooperation” (so often offered but not delivered in China) that will hopefully result in true “win/win” interactions in the future.
The hope I have for the United States, UK, and all other nations, including my own Canada, is that we, too, will continue our evolution in all areas. While we Westerners have made great strides over the past several centuries, we shouldn’t look down our noses at the Chinese simply because their path, style and timing is different than ours. With some patient understanding with one another, hopefully we can all make the necessary adjustments and contributions needed to live in harmony and fulfillment. While it may be past time for Mr. Kitto and family, hopefully in the not to distant future other Westerners may find themselves welcome into a more evolved society.
May God bless us all and help us to reach that goal
Christine
The author wants to return to a country where people have freedom of choice and the right to own their own home, to receive a decent living wage and to have a government that knows how to govern. He wants a good all round education for his children, none of that cramming for exams stuff, no more ‘pass or your are done for’.
Oh dear, he has been away from Britain for a long time. Is anyone going to tell him what it’s like for the majority of ordinary Brits living in Britain these days? I hope he’s saved at least £54k for his children’s university fees, and a similar amount for their board and lodging while they study. And he’d better have at least £300k saved to buy himself a house – oh, and a job to come to.
KopyKatKiller
The article is complete!
In search of Mark Kitto: Journey to Moganshan
http://www.sinolicious.com/2013/01/05/in-search-of-mark-kitto/
Snoopy Jnr
There cannot be a united ‘Chinese’ nation under the CCP and it will go the way of Yugoslavia and USSR. Only a nation build on freedom and respect for human rights will last a long time. The diverse nature of China societies can be managed like how the USA did after the its civil war, recognition that association of states must be free.
Still not too late though. However, it will need a bold, visionary leader to lead the transformation and among the first steps would be to give independence to the Tibetans and the Uighurs. Treating them as ethnic Chinese is like England colonizing Ireland and calling them ethnic English.,
Suzhou Plum
Very fascinating essay. Heavy, and provoking one’s thinking about China in a profoundly deep level.
Mark’s utterance did not merely depict an epitome of the fate of a foreigner who tried or is still trying to make a living in China – excluding those rich or powerful corporate brats, or the well connected like Neil Heywood (before being murdered) , it is also a very comprehensive summary of what I’ve experienced, observed, and self dissected on why I, a native Chinese who repatriated to China after living overseas for more than a decade, could not feel being totally a Chinese again for the last 7+ years in China. The difference between mine and Mark’s realisation is that my epiphany came a lot earlier that I would have to leave China sooner or later, that I would never be a Chinese again once I had accepted many ideas from the West. In fact, it is insatiable for one to maintain her/his ingrained beliefs and ideas, and yet to understand, accept and fit into a foreign country like China, which their opening to the world is ostensibly economical, while other aspects are just its by-products. At least for me, I don’t even have such a luxurious desire.
The problem for me, or anyone with any association to China, by nationality, language, or pure interest, China will always be in the back of our mind to revisit someday again, and again… an inescapable reality of a love and hate relationship.
Aleanor
LOL. So sorry but I think the debate has truly taken a turn for the hilarious. The differences in opinion is obviously deeply ingrained in both parties stubbornly skewed to their own experiences and what they “know”. Surely personal attacks are unnecessary? Anyway I just wanted to say that I can relate to the “Insider” vs “Outsider” regime. And the irony is that both my paternal grandparents hail from China whilst my maternal great grandparents also come from China. In other words I am of direct Chinese descent. I remember my Lao shi used to frequently Emphasise that I am not Chinese. And the non-Chinese descents are complaining?
Jiajun
Very interesting input. Mark’s view point about the ‘inwardness’ of the Chinese culture exactly overlaps with what one of my professor, who had lived in both China and Japan, believes. Not a coincidence I think, that if a culturally sensitive and intelligent ‘outsider’ who spend enough years living in China will come to a conclusion about the fundamental inward and arrogant attitude towards other cultures that’re so embedded within the Confucius culture.
The philosophical and political ideology of ‘land under heaven (tianxia)’ is the core of our culture. Deep in the Chinese minds there’d be no other countries or races that are qualified to be abreast of the ‘heavenly kingdom’. the world as we understand is always hierarchical. A hierarchy with the Middle Kingdom sitting in the core of the circle surrounded by the rest of the barbarian tribes from all quarters. I see no trend or whatsoever, at least in the philosophical front, that the Chinese will attempt to change such an attitude.
Yet until we’re able to fundamentally adapt our philosophical believes to a more universal and equal attitude towards other cultures and races, the saying or the pursue of ‘China leading the world’ is, as I believe, in vain.
(FYI. I’m Chinese national who had lived and studied in western countries and Japan)
KopyKatKiller
“A hierarchy with the Middle Kingdom sitting in the core of the circle surrounded by the rest of the barbarian tribes from all quarters. I see no trend or whatsoever, at least in the philosophical front, that the Chinese will attempt to change such an attitude.”
The funny thing is, the barbarians have been laughing at China for hundreds of years…
There was a thread started on a web site here in Shanghai once entitled “Are you proud to be Chinese.” Every Chinese person on the site was extremely proud. Everyone else laughed. In 2013, it is an extremely silly notion to be proud of ones country.
Arguably, Rome has had a much larger impact on the modern world than anything Chinese. I wonder if a mainland Chinese person could even contemplate such an idea without their head exploding….?
Shinubi
We talk like there is one Chinese race. There are 56, the huge majority Han plus they other 55 and several unrecognized. Some nation, huh? Especially 20 million of them want to go their own way, viz., Tibetan and Uighur..but have been prevented by force from doing so.
Jon
You will never be Chinese.
Well, never say never. Or maybe that is being foolishly optimistic. I was on the plane leaving England to return to China and there was some kind of Chinese official on the plane who said to me China will never become American, I felt like laughing, I mean it is too late, it has already started to happen, on a material level though.
The thing is, it isn’t being American as I understand and that ” American” thing is just freedom. To have the choice,the freedom of choice, to have the quality, good standard of living and of course a whole lot more. I think no matter what country or political system I think we all want freedom and dare I say peace. I think people genuinely dont want the us and them situation. But the Chinese government feels it must keep a strong grip on its people otherwise rebellion will raise its ugly head again. That is why I guess it feels justified to brainwash and lie to its people. Maybe it thinks it is the only way to keep order.
Fear has caused so many of the problems that have arisen in every country, every government not only China. Until the us and them thinking drops, until boarders and passports are dropped this will carry on ad infinitum.
Shinubi
Of course, they will never become American. They are a communist state with a hypocritical ideology, oppression and occupying large chunks of territory whose people do not want them there. I would like to see the Tibetan and Uighurs free.
tawhaki
It’s interesting how Americans always say things like this when the peaceful island nation of Hawaii was invaded and annexed by the US in 1893. There are a minority of separatists in those provinces, do you think Hawaii should be allowed to self rule if a small minority of the original inhabitants wanted it? (P.S. there is such a minority, around 10%)
john
Actually, when you talk about chinese referring to “outsiders” (Wai guo ren?, you’ve got it wrong. The literal translation is “people from outside the country”. It makes very big difference in the way you have intepereted it.
Also, I think you have it better. Chinese people in Western countries have it worse than your experiences.
Daniel Paradis
“Once you’ve purchased the necessary baubles, you’ll want to invest the rest somewhere safe, preferably with a decent return—all the more important because one day you will have to pay your own medical bills and pension, besides overseas school and college fees. But there is nowhere to put it except into property or under the mattress.”
There is always gold. I hear that the Chinese government encourages their citizen to buy gold.
Phil
“China has lost its moral compass” a dear physician friend of mine from Shenzhen said to me repeatedly during our many wide ranging discussions over the memorable meals we shared there. The rise of selfishness is everywhere to see, and its intensity is growing as existential anxieties rip through its citizenry, spread by Weibo in a flash. This article is very complete and prescient; it underscores my own experiences living there (I’ve escaped) and I fear for the future of my many wonderful Chinese friends. Their inner beauty is being scarred by the erosive experience they are living every day.
Sadly, with so many involved, it will very likely be that “sudden event” the author refers to that will occur, and soon, which will affect the future of not just China, not just Asia, but that of the world. And it is very likely that it will do so in a catastrophic manner.
Imagine the potential for superpower confrontation that is increasing everyday with Japanese F16′s occupying the same airspace as Chinese faux Mig 29′s over the disputed Islands (you pick their name). They each have intense macho self regard promoted by their Governments and culture, combined with the absolute cultural requirement for the saving of face! And neither of their military leaderships contains ANY Generals who have had combat experience! What a recipe for disaster…and if the Americans can’t get climbdown, it will only continue to get more dangerous.
We must all pray for China.
wych
“…Chinese faux Mig 29?s”…What are you on about? You know perfectly well that China has no Mig 29s, either real or “faux”. What resemblance do you see between the J-10 & the Mig 29 that you would not expect to see between any two aircraft designed to perform a similar function?
And surely you meant “Japanese F15s”, not “F16s”?
Phil
Ok then J 11 or “faux” Suhkoi SU 27 along with the Japanese “faux” F16 Mitsubishi/ GD F2 if you want to split hairs…just a nod to the unfortunate habit of reverse engineering in the region.
Not sure what you’re trying to do by trotting out half correct technical information when we should all be focused on the danger of the two air forces flying in such close proximity…the equipment type won’t merit a footnote if someone puts some tracers across the nose of another’s fighter!
wych
Thank you. You haven’t specified in what way you believe what I said to be only “half” correct but I’ll let that pass. The problem is that your information, at least with respect to the reverse engineering issue, is totally incorrect.
To start with, I understand that the recent aerial confrontation was between Chinese J-10s (not J-11s) & Japanese F15s (not F2s). Contrary to what you imply, none of these 4 aircraft is the result of reverse engineering. Not a single one. For your information,
1) The J-10 was indigenously designed in China, probably with some Russian help.
2) The J-11 is not a reverse engineered or “faux” Su-27: it IS the Su-27, manufactured in China under licence from Sukhoi.
3) Likewise, the Japanese F15s are just F15s manufactured under licence in Japan.
4) The Mitsubishi F2 is certainly based on the F16 but it was jointly developed & is jointly manufactured (on a 60-40 basis) by Mitsubishi & Lockheed Martin.
Now I agree with you entirely that what’s important here is the potential for conflict between two major powers & that the precise origin of the “equipment types” involved is a side issue. But, with respect, I must point out that it was you, not I, who introduced this irrelevancy when you injected the prefix “faux” into your previous post. It was only because of your unjustified & unjustifiable invocation of that stereotype that I felt impelled to reply.
Rachel
If the westerners find China is not their cup of tea, why bother to come to China. Better of go somewhere which you feel comfortable. I find of many negative comments coming from weaterners complianing about their stay in China. I have lived in London for 15 years, very frankly, the anglo saxons are snoobish and arrogant especially those living in the beautiful countryside. They even reluctant to accept me into their anglican church. Anyway, I have to be home in the Far East, preaching the word of God and saving souls. Please look at your own kind before attempting to criticise and condemn others. God bless China and the Chinese. Hallelujah!
A Hong Kong Citizen (not Chinese)
If there’s a God who only bless China and the Chinese, it must be a selfish Chinese.
Daniel
I was watching a talk show on Chinese television. One of the guest was a young American. He was demonstrating his ability to speak mandarin. He was great and the audience was impressed. People were applauding. Then the host made a comment similar to “We don’t need foreigners to take our jobs”. The audience was applauding with more energy and laughing. The young American kept smiling.
In USA / Canada such a comment would sign the end of career for the host. In China it makes him more popular.
CT
While I understand how he feels, I think his real frustration lies is the difficulty of doing business in China. There’s pretty much no rules and the government can also get in the way. Business is ruthless over there, but it’s not really related to him being a foreigner. It’s just when you make money, business partners and even the government want to take it from you. The same thing happens to the Chinese themselves.
In terms of just everyday living, it’s not a problem at all in terms of being accepted, making friends, etc.
Phil
All of us commenting would like to “nail” the issue with some tour de force statement, but we are dealing with the human condition as it plays out in different cultures, and so I believe such a summing up is impossible.
My personal experiences in China ranged from the sublime to the truly frightening, but that’s not to say many other countries on earth couldn’t have offered up the same range.
What I remember the most from living there in recent times are the many wonderful people whom I met. They give me hope that China will expand its extremely rapid development to include all fronts, especially human rights and transparent and fair government, and at all levels within their society. That will result in their becoming a trusted global partner in our combined efforts to improve the world.
This is the same hope I have for the United States, UK, and all other nations, including my own Canada, that we continue our evolution in all areas too. While we Westerners have made great strides over the past several centuries, we can’t just look down our noses at the Chinese simply because their path and timing is different than ours. With some patient understanding of one another, hopefully we can all make the necessary adjustments and contributions needed to live in harmony and fulfillment.
May God bless us all and help us to towards that goal.
Oliver L.
The author makes some good points but there are some real weak points in his arguments, e.g.:
“Believing themselves to be unique, the Chinese find it almost impossible to empathise.”
Much of Western colonial history has been driven by the opposite–a faux universalism or a projection by Westerners that everyone else is really the same as them deep down, often with horrific consequences.
“Controlled by people with conflicting interests, China’s government struggles to be decisive in domestic issues, let alone foreign ones.”
Every government is driven by parties with conflicting interests, even ones as seemingly totalitarian and uniform as Hitler’s or Stalin’s.
“And the system is designed to make avoidance of responsibility a prerequisite before any major decision is taken.”
Is the West doing any better in terms of dealing with the protracted financial/economic crisis of the past few years? As the prime minister of Luxembourg said recently, they all know how to solve the problem(s) they just don’t know how to do it and get reelected.
Laowei
Oliver,
I like what you had to say, but I am confused about weak points you perceive in author’s arguments. You provided contrasting points that don’t seem to weaken the original points.
1. Original Author’s Point: “Believing themselves to be unique, the Chinese find it almost impossible to empathise.”
2. Your comment: Much of Western colonial history has been driven by the opposite–a faux universalism or a projection by Westerners that everyone else is really the same as them deep down, often with horrific consequences.
3. My comment on your comment: Does this mean that point 1 is weak or is Not true in your opinion? I married into the Chinese culture, and after 17 years, I have concluded that empathy (in the Chinese I know) is a function of how close the relationship is to whoever is to be empathise with. I tend to agree with your assessment in 2, but I don’t see how this diminishes or weakens the author’s point in 1.
1a. Original Author’s Point: “Controlled by people with conflicting interests, China’s government struggles to be decisive in domestic issues, let alone foreign ones.”
2a. Your comment: Every government is driven by parties with conflicting interests, even ones as seemingly totalitarian and uniform as Hitler’s or Stalin’s.
3a. My comment on your comment: Does this mean that point 1a is weak or is Not true in your opinion?
1b. Original Author’s Point: “And the system is designed to make avoidance of responsibility a prerequisite before any major decision is taken.”
2b. Your comment: Is the West doing any better in terms of dealing with the protracted financial/economic crisis of the past few years? As the prime minister of Luxembourg said recently, they all know how to solve the problem(s) they just don’t know how to do it and get reelected.
3b. My comment on your comment: I agree with what you said here, but ask yourself this – do Chinese (and the “system”) seem to have an aversion to clear yes and no answers? From what I read, and from my experiences, it seems like they do not like being locked into black and white answers about much of anything. I play a game with my wife that goes something like this. I plan to ask her a series of innocuous yes and no type questions, then I ask them, then she says many things – none of which are yes or no. This feels like she is avoiding taking responsibility for answering in a clear and forthright manner, although it’s likely conditioning from the old country rather than a formal tactic to avoid responsibility .. ha ha ha
See this webpage for some fun stuff about the way Chinese do things based on their long cultural development. http://www.china-mike.com/chinese-culture/understanding-chinese-mind/cult-of-face/
I can
REPLY
Waiguoren
Mr. Oliver L writes:
> Much of Western colonial history has been driven by the opposite–a faux universalism or a projection by Westerners that everyone else is really the same as them deep down, often with horrific consequences.
OBJECTION: Modernism is predicated over the sense that deep down we are NOT at all the same, since we are (supposed to be) all “historically” (environmentally, socially, linguistically, materially, etc.) determined. Underlying the Enlightenment rhetoric of *nominal* universality there is an ontology of radical difference that allows some to argue that the Negro or the Chinese are not human in the same sense that the Anglo-Saxon or the Aryan is. It is properly the DENIAL of a HUMAN NATURE identical for all (and thus PERMANENT or “transhistorical”) that is the basis for “horrors” that people like Abe Lincoln (see previous comments) have always stood to avert.
Simon Lice
The only thing China beats us in is labor. They have communist slave labor. We can even compete with that; it is just that we have been sold out by narrow minded greedy people that do not really know how to compete; they just see cheap labor and know we do not have it here. I do know how to beat the Asians not just China by using different materials and sacrifice with more labor but we can beat them. Believe that. I see others on to my ideas on certain products that we can make and sell cheaper with higher quality and even a better price. China and other nations do alot of things cheap and do have some good products but it is a hit or miss to purchase quality all the time from them. When they catch on to quality it will do us in.
Laowei
It seems to me that they steal most of their ideas from other countries. I understand that this is condoned and promoted in an effort to “catch-up” to other countries.
In China, there is no point in dreaming-up a new idea and producing a product, since another Chinese will steal it in a heartbeat if there’s money to be made – I was told this by smart Chinese people. They may have intellectual property laws, but all laws in China are subject to the power of corruption by the people with money or power. They like to focus on things that can’t be stolen – like bribing for influence on contracts. What a great county oh yeah
When they figure out how to have an original idea that can be effectively produced for a profit without being stolen by another Chinese, then we are in big trouble.
Waigoren
I have not seen china as much as the author saw, It has become a place for foreigners for short stay and work. I was born in wrong timing and that affected me. Global financial crisis during oppurtunistic time and very different system in my own country took me years and years of research now i came to a conclusion that we have to know law, system and family… To balance these three in modern time where oppurtunity is awesome in rest of emerging world is very difficult. Future is India and better get ready to learn more about Indian regulation that is required for foreigners. I will write a book about it in future.
Max
Why do you need to be a “Chinese” to live your life in China? They can accept you and your difference as a none Chinese, but you just cannot accept the way they accepted you is different from what you wanted? There is always someone trying to educate the Chinese to accept the difference that are brought from overseas, and they just cannot (or doesn’t want to) accept the term acceptance itself is different from culture to culture.
I never felt flattered (actually a bit offended) when the locals call me a Kiwi or Aussie (the 2 countries I have experienced), yes I am a hater that I cannot even take positive comments, it was proved when I said I am just an ordinary overseas Chinese blended in, I was then told the ordinary Chinese are not suppose to be like this and that blah blah so I have to be local to be as good as a local.
I am a Chinese and I would like to live (not just travel to) in another country when it happens to experience the differences in life and people, I blend in, I make friends, I live a good life, and I do try to localize myself only because I am not one. I would like to be seen as a foreigner to has the attitude and skills to be welcomed, and I don’t have to changing my identity every time I move. I never ask the locals to agree with me though because I know there is certainly differences in between, certainly I am not educating you what to do in another country, because I am glad that we are different.
Jubb3500
This is a great article in many ways. Well thought out and very true from what I’ve seen.
However this particular comment by the writer struck me as entirely and inadvertently, ironi—
“Once you’ve purchased the necessary baubles, you’ll want to invest the rest somewhere safe, preferably with a decent return—all the more important because one day you will have to pay your own medical bills and pension, besides overseas school and college fees. But there is nowhere to put it except into property or under the mattress. The stock markets are rigged, the banks operate in a way that is non-commercial, and the yuan is still strictly non-convertible.”
Gee, this situation sounds just like the good ‘ol free market U.S. of A. and our entirely rigged stock “market” and provenly venal and corrupt banks.
And if you don’t have medical insurance or a pension from your job in America (increasingly hard to come by these days) when you “retire” you are pretty much on your own aside from a miniscule social security stipend.
Please explain why our system of investment in America is any better or different then China’s?
AlexCritique
Kitto’s political critiques are mostly on-point, but problematic is the ethnic undertone embedded in his narrative. The undertone, summarized by the title itself, seem to suggest that the political problems are ethnic, which is, again, questionable. Modern English puts me at a disadvantage – if the word for my nationality is coincidental with the word for my perceived ethnic origins, then political critique can always be abusively doubled over for an ethnic smear, which is what I think is happening here.
How reliable is his account, really, when he can enjoy repeated business success in such a corrupt place, recount its corruption, and leave himself almost spotless in the narrative? And to put his discursive authority into question, I’ve lived in US/Canada for the same number of years he lived in China (did he say 16?). But it would be funny, wouldn’t it, if everyone took my social critique as total fact without asking back. Plus, the mode-of-address in his title is interesting to think about – who are the “you” that he has in mind? (He isn’t addressing me, surely.)
If you buy into the insinuation, that being Chinese is being corrupt, and that you’ll never be corrupt, well, best of luck – everyone can use some.
greg parker
Read it. Agree with. Its not negative, its reality. Not negative at all. Great article.
Ralf
I understand Mark Kittos. I lived in China for 20 years. 8 of which on the mainland.
There is no such thinh as THE Chinese. Just as there is not THE American. Americans see themselves often as the most friendly, and easy to call anyone a friend. But in the news and the movies you see most Americans shooting each other.
I have made some Chinese friends, most of the friends I made in China are Chinese, and most of them emigrated. I just visited one of those who stayed. I miss my friends, and the food, and the general atmosphere, not so much the rich shopping centers that provide no more cover in heavy rain, more the old buildings where the firstfloor reaches over the sidewalk. There are so many things and emotions.
But I hate crossing the border into China, and when I watch the news I want to see news and not grazing horses. And I don’t want to be asked at the border: did you buy books abroad?
I didn’t mind walking home through big Chinese cities at night. Wouldn’t dare to do that in Europe.
And then, Mark Kitto was privileged with a multi-million dollar business in a restricted business sector, and then still could buy a house near Shanghai and build more houses and found another business. He is rich.
haphan90
it;s the same in Vietnam, if you replace ” China” by “Vietnam”, nothing diffirent
passerby
Sorry, could not finish reading this after ”Modern day mainland Chinese society is focused on one object: money and the acquisition thereof. ”
I’ve been living in the West for the last 11 years and can same the sameabout it.
People here work to pay their bills and gample in in hope to get rich one day.
Waiguoren
Give it a few more years, mister. For Western capitalism, capital accumulation is *not* the end (happiness), but the best means to achieve it. Capitalists may be wrong, but they are not completely mad.
Alex Haych
You’ll never be Chinese
Written by a white dude
seems about right lol
Nobody
Happened to read this long article and the long long comments…
Don’t you think some people are just as brainwashed as the Chinese?
I just think maybe it is too soon for Mr. Kitto to leave China after only a few years spent in this country. Immigrant will find it hard to be part of the local community and even harder if they are in China probably because of starkly different mindsets and backgrounds.
Dave
No one discusses how to improve the misunderstandings between parties involved.
Openly talking about differences and the sources of those differences is a great place to start a discussion and I’ve done it. A key fact is that it takes two to have this discussion and when closed-minded people are involved, it gets ugly, because they don’t want to change (or can’t ) or challenge their belief system. Some people find it very weird to look at their beliefs with the objective of understanding the origins of those beliefs. These ideas are at the root of most of the cross-cultural problems that exist today in my humble opinion.
Some are trained not to be open minded to fend-off and protect a beliefs that are indefensible, such as religious beliefs – your faith-based reality is not my reality. Until people learn to relax and lighten-up, the world is doomed.
I think in the case of Chinese and “outsiders” it gets down to people being too lazy to question their view and mindset AND to talk about them. Until people are ready question their beliefs, we are all doomed.
Can you teach an old dog new tricks? In theory it is possible, but the reality is altogether different.
A Hong Kong Citizen (not Chinese)
As a Hong Kong born citizen, I should tell that there are bunch of mainland immigrants who were teenagers when they came to Hong Kong. They feel ashamed of their nationality and try to claim they grow up in Hong Kong and are Hong Kong citizens to hide the fact that they were originally born in mainland China. They disguise as a Hong Kong born citizen and make claims such as Hong Kong do not welcome british or any westerners. These claims are completely false. Hope that westerners understand that Hong Kong is in a chaos of identity recognition. just be cautious when you find anyone who claim he is a Hong Kong citizen comments aggressively towards westerners.
Dave
To: A Hong Kong Citizen (not Chinese)
This is an interesting post. You point-out that mainlanders are not the same as native-born Hong Kongese and that maybe they are a bad influence in some respects when they project their opinion.
It seems to me that an opinion has value, but not as an objective verifiable fact of life (my wife is Chinese and I love her dearly, but she presents every opinion as a fact and struggles to accept that her opinions are subject to criticism and evaluation).
Anyway, you present a “balancing weight” in the minds of those looking at Hong Kong and the way people there treat “outsiders”. It’s funny that mainland Chinese would ever presume to represent Hong Kong!