You’ll never be Chinese

Why I'm leaving the country I loved.

by Mark Kitto / August 8, 2012 / Leave a comment

Published in August 2012 issue of Prospect Magazine

Mark Kitto and family; Photo: Eric Leleu

Death and taxes. You know how the saying goes. I’d like to add a third certainty: you’ll never become Chinese, no matter how hard you try, or want to, or think you ought to. I wanted to be Chinese, once. I don’t mean I wanted to wear a silk jacket and cotton slippers, or a Mao suit and cap and dye my hair black and proclaim that blowing your nose in a handkerchief is disgusting. I wanted China to be the place where I made a career and lived my life. For the past 16 years it has been precisely that. But now I will be leaving.

I won’t be rushing back either. I have fallen out of love, woken from my China Dream. “But China is an economic miracle: record number of people lifted out of poverty in record time… year on year ten per cent growth… exports… imports… infrastructure… investment…saved the world during the 2008 financial crisis…” The superlatives roll on. We all know them, roughly.

Don’t you think, with all the growth and infrastructure, the material wealth, let alone saving the world like some kind of financial whizz James Bond, that China would be a happier and healthier country? At least better than the country emerging from decades of stultifying state control that I met and fell in love with in 1986 when I first came here as a student? I don’t think it is.

When I arrived in Beijing for the second year of my Chinese degree course, from London University’s School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), China was communist. Compared to the west, it was backward. There were few cars on the streets, thousands of bicycles, scant streetlights, and countless donkey carts that moved at the ideal speed for students to clamber on board for a ride back to our dormitories. My “responsible teacher” (a cross between a housemistress and a parole officer) was a fearsome former Red Guard nicknamed Dragon Hou. The basic necessities of daily life: food, drink, clothes and a bicycle, cost peanuts. We lived like kings—or we would have if there had been anything regal to spend our money on. But there wasn’t. One shop, the downtown Friendship Store, sold coffee in tins.

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Comments

Patrick
July 22, 2012 at 03:40
Hi, I cannot read your article because of the paywall. You are not alone, 2012 has been the defining year for me, I feel that this is it. After 2008and the Olympics I was already getting tired of the constant bullshit, 2009 and the sudden influx of cheap money meant that everyone had SUVs again. It is all totally messed up. And yes, in case you did not know. We will never be Chinese. At best Xinjiangren...
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GM williams
July 22, 2012 at 18:51
Mr Kitto seems to have hoped the Chinese would agree to be raw material for a further expansion of the Western way of life. This might have happened if the West had handled the Soviet collapse better. The example of Russia's post-Soviet decline must have discouraged such feelings. Has he never heard such arguments? Another notable omission is the period 1912-49, in which China did very seriously try to Westernise itself, and achieved very little. By copying elements of Leninism, the Kuomintang got strong enough to impose nominal unity, but in many places they simple signed up local warlords who remained independent in real terms. It was only the Chinese Communist with a much stronger dose of Leninism who were able to impose modern industrial civilisation on China. He also has Chinese history muddled. The Mongols conquered China with a wholly alien political system, and did not treat it any differently from other advanced civilisations that they conquered. It was only after Kublai Khan extinguished the Song Dynasty and also failed to get recognised as 5th Great Khan by a significant fraction of the Mongols that he founded the Yuan Dynasty, strengthening his Chinese base. Some Chinese historians then extended the Yuan Dynasty back to the first four Great Khans, but that is as absurd as listing Adolph Hitler as President of Poland. The Manchu dynasty were just the opposite. They might have set up a functionally independent kingdom with its own culture and loose links to the Chinese Empire, as happened in Korea and Vietnam. Instead they had a long-term ambition to succeed the declining Ming Dynasty, intentionally copying Chinese forms. Ethnically they were a mix of Jurchen, Mongol and Han.
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IANDE
July 24, 2012 at 21:54
What a pity if Mark Kitto will not be writing for Prospect any more. His is the article I always turn to first. After reading "China Cuckoo" a few years ago my wife and I decided to make a pilgrimage from Shandong province - where we spend 6 weeks of every year - to Moganshan to meet the great man. (What a journey it was for a couple who, unlike him, do not speak fluent Chinese!) Just as his articles are a delight to read, so he and his wife were a delight to meet. Our long weekend was really an experience to remember. We wish them well in their new ventures.
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Herman Kloeti
July 25, 2012 at 22:26
To pay with that hellwall!
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Ganpat
July 26, 2012 at 08:04
Well, don’t be Chinese. Nobody asked you. The trouble with Westerners, especially Anglo-Saxons, is that they have lived too easily too long and thus lack a sense of gravitas. They are incurably frivolous. Frenchmen and Germans and even Italians are less irritating because they have gone through tough histories and are more grown up, as a rule. What tells this fellow the Chinese care a tinker’s cuss what he thinks of them? If he wants to go – go. China has had a hard history and is slowly building a better society. No, it is not going to be a cheap copy of the Murdochian Anglosphere. Tough if you don’t like it.
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Ganpat
July 26, 2012 at 15:56
His dog probably eats more in a year than ten average Chinese.
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Ganpat
July 26, 2012 at 15:57
Leave the tyke for the Chinese to eat, right? Do something useful for a change.
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LDZ
July 26, 2012 at 17:44
As someone coming from a country with a similar history (and in some ways, present) to China, Mr. Kitto's article resonates quite strongly with me. Hopefully he will keep on writing his column from UK, dealing with past experiences in China, as it was indeed one of the first things I read in Prospect. He is so right in so many respects in the above article, almost prophetic. The only thing I am really afraid of in the future is a rogue state with money. When internal things turn sour, China - like my native country in the past - will turn to nationalism and will try to externalise its problems. The world will be even less of a friend then. That's the moment for us to start being worried.
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Teddy
July 31, 2012 at 22:40
I see ganpat completely missed the point of the article. No one wants to "change" China and make it western, and the constant attacks on those who merely point out its flaws are part of the sick comedy of China and so called "development" Thanks for once agains howing up for the unreasoned, Ganpak!
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Chris Devonshire-Ellis
August 7, 2012 at 06:00
I have some sympathy for Mark, however part of his issues were a rather bearish attitude to business that ultimately cost his control of the "That's" magazines, which to be frank were always operating in a very dubious manner legally in China anyway (foreign participation is highly restricted in publishing) and I always felt he never fully grasped that "high risk" means exactly that in business. He was never able to reconcile that risk with his losing. But in any emerging market, that's the deal. Perhaps finding out that he was, after all, merely mortal dealt a savage blow, and his comments about leaving whine a little about life in China. But he has accomplished so much else - a beautiful wife and two great kids. That in itself must be adequate compensation for the China business success he thought he craved for yet ultimately proved beyond him. And anyway, surely a career as a "China Expert" back in the UK can't be too shabby a consolation prize?
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Xuelun
August 9, 2012 at 17:51
Thank you so much for this article, Mark. I have decided never to move back to China for exactly the same reasons as you mention in this article. I lived in China for 2.5 years, part of which I spent as a student at Peking University. Even Beida students, the most elite in the country, lacked proper skills of inquiry, creativity, and -- to be honest -- ethics. The rate of plagiarism (and lack of teacher response to obviously plagiarized works) was absolutely astounding. If that is the norm for the best students in the country, I can only imagine that China will continue to be corrupt when these students become leaders.
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Sept.In.Junct
August 9, 2012 at 18:54
Well done Mark, quite a few of my expat friends are going home and fed up with living in a prison with no freedom or fairness.
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JRM
August 9, 2012 at 22:16
There's a lot I disagree with here, but I just want to say that my parents came from South Asia to the U.S. forty years ago. They are both citizens, speak fluent (accented) English, attended American graduate schools and are as patriotic as can be. Yet the vast majority of people don't perceive them as American and never will. You mention this briefly here, but it's also worth noting that you enjoy all kinds of privileges as a foreigner in China, not least of which are your financial means and your ability to actually leave when you "fall out of love" with your China dream. In light of that, how could you possibly expect not to be considered an outsider?
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CHINA
August 10, 2012 at 01:50
Very happy to see the paywall finally removed!
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Max Henry
August 10, 2012 at 08:02
Mark, interesting piece but I wish it could be more personal and focused more on what you have achieved, failed, lessons learned... I have lived in China for 15 years and wonder sometimes whether I could live anywhere else... where to go next? home (France) is not a very attractive option for me. You have a very nice family and wish you all the best for your next destination... where are you heading to by the way?
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Anonymous_you_know_why
August 10, 2012 at 08:31
I feel bad for the author that it took 16 years from him to realized what he disclosed in this article, or should I applaud him for putting up with it for 16 years? Anyway thats water under the bridge, and he's made the right choice, the timing is probably not due to the current climate of China but just the age of his children. I'm glad it took me less than 10 years to come to the same conclusion he has and made the same choice. To be completely fair, his past 16 years in China (with the exception of 1989) was probably much more "harmonious" than now, and while he got a lot taken from him, the IRS (or the likes) would of taken more if he stayed in the West. In the end he's still probably ahead than if he didn't go to China, not sure he would of enjoyed the same hi-profile success in his home country. The experience he's learned will be valuable throughout the world especially in developing areas. The "door" he's described are not indigenous to China, silicon valley is not much different with just better weather. BTW I consider myself Chinese... just not that kind of Chinese.
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Peking_Puck
August 10, 2012 at 10:47
Well said Mark! I left China for good yesterday after 17-yrs I don't want my kids to grow up in a "me" culture, nor live in an expat bubble so they don't see the selfishness, spitting and littering. Each time we go out - even my 6-yr old sees the gap between donkey cart peasanta and the haves with Fararri/Benz/Audi. Not a day has gone by when I've not been asked my salary, cost of my villa
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AB Land
August 10, 2012 at 12:13
Well done and well said Kippers. I made my exit a month ago for similar reasons as stated here: "Traditional family culture, thanks to 60 years of self-serving socialism followed by another 30 of the “one child policy,” has become a “me” culture. " Hope to meet you on the piste of some wonderful pais in the future. Cheers, Aaron
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jiemenr
August 10, 2012 at 13:32
Great article, Mark! Thank you for it. I left China a few years ago. I felt threatened as a human being living in a totally Chinese environment. I felt huge fear for me and my newly born half-Chinese kid. My love for and fear from China are equally huge. This has been the only narcotic I have ever taken. I would love reading more of your analysis. Go deeper, please, there are more things to analyze. And please, don't stop writing..
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Brian Sun
August 10, 2012 at 14:54
Hi Mark, it has been a long time since we crossed sabres ol' boy and sorry we have not made way up to Moganshan yet. Thanks for sharing some insights into your long journey in China and like any journey, it is not always about hotel brochure photos and buffet dinners. I am inclined to share similar feelings that there will also be an ending to a foreigner's time in China. As a family man with a 3 year old, it is totally about my choice about the values and culture that I wish my son to be raised. The daily environment and people culture during a child's formative years is very influential. As parents, it is a balance about our priorities and when it is time to change. As adults, we should be more adaptable but children will learn from their immediate environment. Again, it is not necessary negative but a subjective opinion about what is wholesome education and lifestyle; constant news about food scares and social wealth gap does not help frail minds. I wish you and your family well wherever you are heading, stay healthy, happy and have peace of mind.
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James
August 10, 2012 at 15:02
When u visit Blakeney, Mark, think of us who r a few years behind u. Your abilties allow u to be almost anywhere. For that you r truly lucky. I hope to escape with precision and perfect timing. Bon voyage.
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doug
August 10, 2012 at 18:15
wait, it took you 16 years to get the 'chinese mind'? maybe you do belong there.
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Jennifer Miller (Stephenson)
August 11, 2012 at 04:45
Hi Mark, Loved your article! Nice to know what you have been up to since the days of 'Thats'. Best wishes for you and your family and wherever you end up! Cheers Jenn
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Greg
August 11, 2012 at 05:56
I do agree with some of the sentiment here. I wonder what will happen to the place. We have had our kids here and called it home for a decade, but are frustrated we can't be thought of as Chinese, always outsiders. Your view of western history is a bit roses. The British exploited foreign labour in much the same way as the Chinese exploit migrant labour, only difference is migrant labours in chinas case are from their own country. The USA do not offer democracy- they say they do, and do set up a veneer ofit sometimes, but it's all a great game. They use financial and physical force and use pod spin to make it seem really nice. Let's not pretend they are any different from chinese foreign policy.
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Jack Maa
August 11, 2012 at 06:11
Thanks Mark. It would be fantastic if you could elaborate on the CCP's invention of the "100 years of humiliation". It's all about education. There was a Japanese group that got a hold of the history text taught to young Chinese and it was completely fabricated. No historical value except for creating rabid Japan Haters. Which it has done very well. There is no historical teachings about the beautiful architecture built by the French, British and the Americans in Shanghai, the postal service planned out built by the Germans and how China was protected from Japan by the American "FlyingTigers" during WWII. I realize history text are not accurate anywhere as I have lived in many countries. However, the propaganda led by the Russians and passed on to Mao was second to none. The fact that it is still taught as "education" is what foreign countries should fight against. In other words, "if you want FDI for this factory, we demand that you change the textbooks stating that "this specific falsehood created by the CCP propaganda arm, be revised to historical fact". Tie business not to "human rights" but to the education of China's youth.
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Harold
August 11, 2012 at 08:53
Wow, what a whiney little snot this guy is. Talk about redirection in the extreme going on here. 1) Guy comes to China, lives it up as if he were rich. 2) Guy starts a magazine illegally without his own registration number... so, pretty obvious what happens there. The magazine sucks anyways. It's nothing but ads for crap companies, pointless articles that are only interesting to the most mundane FOBs who should really just leave. 3) Moving right along, it sounds more like the american doesn't like how nationalistic propaganda here clashes with the propaganda he got growing up. Guess what? You can home school. 4) Lots of comments about the economy and government that really have nothing to do with anything. What it really comes down to in the end is that you are not rich, can't pretend to be, and you are blaming it on China instead of your useless self. Get out and good riddance.
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Pie
August 11, 2012 at 09:38
Poor Mark's error was that he though he owned That's. You don't ever truly own anything in China that can't be taken away! Just look at the British chap in Chongqing choking down Madame Gu's finest.
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Michael Hennessy
August 11, 2012 at 10:28
Glad you finally woke up. I got out just before the Olympics of 2008 after 7 years. By then it was like everyone was checking their watches saying "Well it's been awesome but I think I'm gonna hit the after-party." which is probably Brazil. Good on ya man, and well-articulated, unlike the easily identifiable uneducated criticisms, both of China and of you by certain other commenters.
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Scott
August 11, 2012 at 10:29
Interesting article, i think the title is misleading though...I thought it would of been about a personal story about how chinese people treated you being a westerner whereas it seems more a comment about Chinese society at large.
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James in NZ
August 11, 2012 at 11:45
Reading this, I am reminded of my own reasons for turning my back on China after 23 years of working in and around the place, and after having studied the language and culture. Of course, this was written far better than I could have mastered, so I plan to share it with the people who wondered how I could possibly have left China for the backwater of New Zealand.
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John
August 11, 2012 at 11:49
The Americans offered the world democracy? Ask the Chileans or the Iranians about that. Ask at least 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians how they feel about democracy. The British gave their subjects a legal system? The British turned Gatling guns on men with spears, established the first concentration camps in South Africa, invaded Tibet and turned half the world into second class citizens in their own countries. God knows there are a lot of problems in China but evil was not one of their inventions.
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Ben
August 11, 2012 at 11:53
These are the very reasons I resist moving there and starting a business although I've been offered significant opportunities to do so. The thing that really bothers me is that so much of the critiques of the government/party there still ring true when you juxtapose it with the US Federal govt. 'To rise to the top you must be grey, with no strong views or ideas. Leadership contenders might think, and here I hypothesise, that once they are in position they can show their “true colours.” Too late they realise that will never be possible.' - wow does this hit home! Replace the word "Chinese" with "Statists" in this quote: 'Leadership requires empathy, an ability to put yourself in your subordinate’s shoes. It also requires decisiveness and a willingness to accept responsibility. Believing themselves to be unique, the Chinese find it almost impossible to empathise.' You now have a very accurate description of the problem with the current administration leadership. Monitoring people, being able to shut down businesses at will, and taking out those who dissent by labeling them as traitors/terrorists - all that is near term for the USA, alas. It's sad that the only REAL difference when we compare China and USA now is simply that they suck more - but we'll soon catch up.
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Aisling
August 11, 2012 at 15:10
China is what it is. If you don't like it then go. Notwithstanding the many truths, some parts of this narrative sound a bit whiny to me - and what did you expect would happen? The kind of social inequality that grows exponentially with the increasing wealth of the relative few has happened in many other contexts in the West.
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Lee
August 11, 2012 at 16:59
For myself, 2002-2009. There's no way I could live here again and the thought of raising kids here is absurd. Now briefly stopping by on my way to Taiwan. Glad I bothered to learn traditional characters, otherwise all that effort would have been a waste. There is a difference between 'yellow peril' racism and an empirical understanding of how spine-chillingly soulless this country has become on various levels. China as superpower would be like Earl Bradley as pope, and I mean that as a fervent anti-american. I'd rather have the evil of neo-liberal 'democratic' capitalism dominate than that of ethno-nationalistic moral-vacuum totalitarian capitalism. Now everyone wants to copy the USA's vacuous culture and way of life simply because it has the most power and influence. I deeply loathe this state of affairs, but I simply would not want to live in a world where that baton were passed to China. I'd prefer to live under the Iranian theocracy. Anyway, if not the housing bubble it'll be the rising cost of oil. PS- I disagree with some of the article's assertions on history. I don't think it's possible to speak of superpowers before the 2nd world war, and it is not academically acceptable now to say the Mongols or Manchus became Chinese as less sinocentric narratives are emerging. The author also has, I'd say, an idiosyncratic reading of the effects of Leninism on China. I think you have to go back to the late Ming rise of commerce and the social and environmental changes caused to explain where Chinese culture is now. Also, a commenter said that the ROC seriously tried to westernise itself. Get real. The only thing it seriously tried to do was become/remain a sovereign unit.
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ralfjritter
August 11, 2012 at 17:07
Engaging and soul-searching article, many themes and concerns sounded familiar. I think what I have learned from never having lived in my country of origin that wherever I went and no matter how long I stayed, I never became American, Chinese, Japanese, Korean or even European. Perhaps, having grown up in Hong Kong, I did not develop a particular ideology or even any substantial ideas -- my family had been in HK since 1949 and while it was home, somehow we always knew that we were transients and living on "borrowed time". I did enjoy a 4-year stay in a Swiss boarding school where I did learn about values, but these were international values which focused on tolerance, mutual respect and a kind of detachment from any kind of national sentiment. When I arrived in the U.S. for college, I was thought to be weird because I did not share many of the sacred "American values" and I witnessed tons of social injustice and some of my professors still maintained then "if America catches a cold, Europe catches pneumonia". I felt that the "me" culture could be as restrictive as the "we" culture: "blow your own horn", I was taught, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" and that above all, it was all about self-reliance. Healthcare was fine as long as you had insurance and a credit card -- a friend of mine, in agony with kidney stones did not have either and the hospital would not tend to him until the friends showed up and deposited cash for him. It was, in a manner, "our way or the highway". I took the highway and went I got back to HK/China, I had learned how to be "free" inside. My wife is also Chinese and we have tons of very close friends and we weren't on the expat circuit. Of course after 1997, as a BNO and not being Chinese, we could not become Chinese, but we had the right of abode in the UK. Throughout our time in China from 1999-2011 what we saw was dynamism and most importantly that "belonging" meant belonging to a community that we built for ourselves. We're still not anything but "supranationals" today, but we have realized that we can live anywhere if we focus on individuals . Perhaps we were too low-profile in China, but we were never bothered by anyone. 98% of the staff at the Chinese affiliate of a multinational were Chinese who certainly had drive and enthusiasm and very individual personalities. At the end of the day, our ideals are very much self-centered and we cannot expect anyone to share our values and beliefs -- if we did, we would be forever unhappy, anywhere.
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Jim
August 11, 2012 at 18:48
Hi Mark. Thank you for a well written article. I do share most of your sentiments about China and its future and, hopefully the world is prepared when China externalizes it's internal problems. Pop..pop...pop, the sound of real estate bubble popping in the near distant future....
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Mac
August 11, 2012 at 18:50
Make your kids healthy and strong, and welcome back! I understand every pain you groan here, and ensure you it will be over by the time you are free of kids-rearing duty and might be eager to go east again.
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Ak
August 11, 2012 at 21:58
I'm Korean born in China, living in the States now. And I couldn't agree more. I'll never become a real Chinese, even though I think I am.
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Singaporean
August 11, 2012 at 23:24
If you think China is bad, try Singapore. It's pretty much the same, without the advantage of size. Unlike China, Singapore welcomes foreigners with open arms and pockets .. but come at your own peril ..
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Luyun
August 12, 2012 at 02:27
You'll never become Chinese, because you never realized that, after spending 16 years in China, you're not localized in any aspect. Try publish some article in Chinese local newspapers. If you can make it, think about becoming a Chinese again.
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Seumas Graham
August 12, 2012 at 02:44
Mark, This is sad to read. Thanks for adding one tiny bit of hope at the end. Moganshan and anyone who enjoyed time up there drinking coffee or martinis with you will miss you. Keep your doors open, wherever you land, and we’ll come visit.
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Jay W
August 12, 2012 at 02:56
That was a long rant about something, but "not being Chinese" is not one of them. And I wish he would go into his business dealings more, because I want to know why his magazine got shut down. It is obvious he hates the Party. As for his coffee shop, he must realize that all the land is owned by the government, so even if he is Chinese, he would still have to deal with corruption and red tape. Again, he fails at trying to prove his "Chinese are racist towards me because I am white" spiel. "I read about Ai Weiwei, Chen Guangchen and Liu Xiaobo on Weibo, the closely monitored Chinese equivalent of Twitter and Facebook, where a post only has to be up for a few minutes to go viral. My wife had never heard of them until she started using the site. The censors will never completely master it. (The day my wife began reading Weibo was also the day she told me she had overcome her concerns about leaving China for the UK.) There are tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of mainland Chinese who “follow” such people too, and there must be countless more like them in person, trying in their small way to make China a better place. One day they will prevail. That’ll be a good time to become Chinese. It might even be possible." So his wife decides to leave China after reading Weibo, which he introduced to her for the sole purpose of making her hate her own country? And what do these dissidents have to do with "becoming Chinese"? It is not that he cannot become Chinese. It is that he thinks he is better than the average "brainwashed sop who do not know how oppressed they truly are and it is the white man's burden to show these benighted natives the true path!!!" And that he will only become Chinese after they become good disloyal yellow Englishmen who hate their own government and wants to move to the UK. Wigger please.
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XiaoZhun
August 12, 2012 at 03:56
Mark's little article shows his complete and pathetic jealously of the great Chinese success story. It not so surprising to me then that such a little racist man would have difficultly living is in a country such as China. To do so requires humble and accept China is the future.
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Thor Halland
August 12, 2012 at 05:18
I remember a certain Mark Kitto Abseiling down the school Clock and sticking bats on it. Could't be him of course.
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geek42
August 12, 2012 at 08:17
well, you are now leaving china for you dislike it, but i am still here while i am also dislike it. that's the differences between you and us :[
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lemms
August 12, 2012 at 08:53
wow... you sound just like any of the "angry/furious" youth from China! Are you sure you are not a chinese, only with a outwardly appearance of an elderly white male? :)
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Lala
August 12, 2012 at 10:19
I recently left China too. I now live in Eastern Europe and am so much happier! I much prefer the simple life here.
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AvengerMoJo
August 12, 2012 at 11:24
I'm Chinese from HK, after 10 years living in Beijing, I moved to Taipei recently. I believe most of the issues are non-issues until you see your own children need to face themselves. If my child is 10 years older I may not need to leave, but you are right. Even Chinese can't be Chinese easily.
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Jay
August 12, 2012 at 12:40
Sir - I don't contest what you say about China. However, having lived in the UK for the last three years, I doubt that it's a place that can offer either you or your children a viable economic future. The education system at any level is a shambles unless you are willing to pay a king's ransom in private fees. The levels of xenophobia in the UK today are as high as anything you will experience in Saudi Arabia or Alabama. The experience of living in any country comes with its pros and cons and if you live somewhere long enough, you take the pros for granted and focus on the cons. I think they key is to be able to be grateful for what you have while learning to deal with cons.
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Dear Matt
August 12, 2012 at 12:55
China lacks every thing except...... human being
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Mark Newham
August 12, 2012 at 13:50
The only thing that surprises me about this article is that it took MK so long to reach the same conclusion I reached after just two years. Mind you, I did have the short circuit advantage of being a system insider. Doing time with the Xinhua News Agency - China's prime state propagandist - does have the effect of compressing the learning experience rather. Like MK, I left KNOWING that the foreigner is only tolerated at best in China. Just a few weeks as a system insider was enough to convince me that us 'foreign experts' are only of use to the system for long as our brains continue producing useful information. Once picked clean, that brain becomes surplus to Chinese requirements - unless, of course, it can be harnessed to foment the best-of-all-possible-worlds message, the only one the PRC seems interested in conveying to the rest of the world. I got out before the full effect of the insidious re-education process kicked in with but one thing on my mind - warning the rest of the world of China's true intentions. The result was 'Limp Pigs', an insider, evidence-based attempt to explode the great changing-China myth. Sounds like MK has something similar in mind.
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Daniel
August 12, 2012 at 14:41
"me culture", "inequalities", "money centered"... wow, at the beginning I thought he was talking about the US. Isn´t the problem that they have become more than us, but we only notice when this happens in another country?
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Tommy B
August 12, 2012 at 15:30
Thanks for this Mark. It merely feeds my own concerns about living here and I have no children. All the best for you and your family back in the UK and I hope to catch up with you on two wheels at some point in the future or at a Grenville reunion!
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Viktorious
August 12, 2012 at 16:36
Zao shang hao Mark..... I just arrived in China on 29 Feb 2012: English Teacher of course. Frankly I love it. I've been treated wth dignity by my students and faculty and by the people here in Qing dao. I feel safe anywhere I've been and I do realize Zhongguo is "da", it is not the end of all worlds for me... I'll do a few years here and from there try another country for culture and food and sights............... I think it's it to each his own or something like that. I'm sure you're pissed about the mega-millions biz, but you had to realize sir -- Those riches,....were never going to be yours for the taking. You sound like a smart fellow, but that piece I question sir. Anywho -- I enjoyed the article and I wish and your piao liang family all the best sir. Viktor
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rvandenrink
August 12, 2012 at 16:50
Should be Chen Guangcheng, not Chen Guangchen
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daniele
August 12, 2012 at 18:05
as a foreigner in China since 1995, I passed through ordeals even worst of those mentioned by Mark, kids born here, and Japan, moved back to EU and now again here. Yes, I must agree with all negative points of this letter but... at the end... a unanswered question remain on my mind. Because I'm fully convinced that do not exist the perfect way to govern any society, from the tiny island to this mammouth. Because of my convictions, i would like to ask the same in deep analysis of any of our old developed countries, or underdeveloped or whatsoever... at the end, all the humans are not perfect for this reason there is no paradise in the earth. Paradise is where I and my family feel good to stay, because we stay by our free decision.... Good Luck Mark
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Bandhu
August 13, 2012 at 01:02
Interesting articles but not very different experience than any other immigrant in any other country. I have been living in the US for the past 20+ years, have a great job, house, family etc. But I and my family will always be second rate citizens. Our patriotism will always be questioned because of our religion and color of skin. Yes, it is easier to start up a business here as compared to China or India, but the social and cultural alienation is a constant. I spent many years fighting stereotypes and then decided to just spend more time with my own kind. Of course, I am cordial with the others and have a large circle of friends, but that does not mean that I fit in, or ever will. So, if the author leaves after so many years because of suppression of minorities, unfair economic opportunities, lack of sense of community, I can tell you that's the case in the US too.
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Jacob
August 13, 2012 at 02:34
I live in South East Asia and I agree with some of the statements the author makes. It's not just China: they can be applied to other countries too. There's a bit of religion in the belief that money and love always go together, for example. I am a Humanities lecturer in university and when I got here I was shocked to learn that my students don't read (those who read, read Harry Potter and other fandom crap) and are not willing to visit the library on a regular basis, or to do any substantial homework, for that matter. Camus, Nietzsche, Agatha Christie are foreign and nobody makes the effort to understand them precisely because they are foreign. I am Spanish, so all of these authors are foreign to me as well, but in my country we (readers) made the effort to catch up. Here there's no such thing as admiring the cultural output of those who "invented" civilisation. Inward looking patriotism is a substitute. Foreigners here are business. I honestly think that's the only downside of Asia. I love it here, I am here because I want to, but there's no place for philosophers here, nothing that doesn't have a price tag. In 1850 you could run away from the ruthlessness and ugliness and selfishness of Industrial Britian (very similar to China today) by reading Dickens or by being Marx. There was some (marginal) value in it. That's not the case in Asia. Japan might be an exception.
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CR
August 13, 2012 at 03:18
Once again, those who start to bark like angry dogs, show again the intolerance that we live in. China, the untouchable, where everything is "harmonious". Mark is talking from the pain of his heart and has the same right to express himself as any Chinese living in USA or New Zeland. Once again, in this country there's no respect for truth. And yes, many things have to be changed, of course, as have to be changed in many other countries. Life is exactly that, a continous change and evolving process.
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?????
August 13, 2012 at 04:31
"Traditional family culture, ....” has become a “me” culture... " "...In the small rural village where we live I am not asked about my health or that of my family, I am asked how much money our small business is making, how much our car cost, our dog." In my admittedly short (2.5 years) experience living in a mid-level city and also a very rural area in Zhejiang province I have found this not to be the case. While there is definitely the ubiquitous flaunting of new money in the newer areas, I found there still to be an extremely strong traditional family culture, and most everyone I knew held strong traditional family values. I was always talking about my family, my health, meeting for group meals, taking trips with friends into the mountains or parks. I felt very much a part of a community during my time there and can't wait to get back to China to see my friends and catch up. I know I'm a foreigner and I know it's not my country that I'm living in. I have no illusions of expecting China to morph into the country from which I came, or any desire to become famous and teach the Chinese people to live in the way I think they should. I think with this attitude it's less frustrating dealing with what are the obvious shortcomings in the way the government and public systems operate and treat their citizens. While I can't disagree with most of what you write, I think that it's important for others who are reading this article to remember that there are 1.4 billion citizens in China and the vast majority of them aren't a part of the communist party, aren't super-rich, and shouldn't be attributed with the shallowness with which you characterize the soulless money-grubbers you are apparently surrounded by in Moganshan. There is no doubt about the ills of the communist government and public systems you write about. But I hope that you made enough good friends in the 16 years you were in China that you aren't regretting the whole time.
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Phil
August 13, 2012 at 05:02
I am the lucky one who made a killing during the past 13 years staying in China and I couldn't agree with the author more.
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ben
August 13, 2012 at 05:09
I'm surprised the author lasted in China that long, because he is--like me--vehemently against the way the Chinese government operate and behave. it's very hard for people who care about things like creative freedom and not being told what to think and not have a government that tries to rewrite history/news to like living in China. i've always assumed that any westerner who lived there have decided that it's worth giving up the liberties mentioned in the previous paragraph for the easy money and the ability to live like a king (face it, white people are on often placed on a pedestal in Asia). basically, i've always thought that China was a place that a westerner either can't stand (like me) or love. very rare to find someone live there for 16 some years but FEEL THAT WAY about the government and how the country operates. i lived in Hong Kong for five years, and i've always corrected US friends who thought i lived in China.
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What is quite funny about this paper is that it seems to be lifted from the pages of Western writing about Russia. Many of us of the first generation of Westerners who flocked to Moscow have become embittered as we have become increasingly irrelevant - an
August 13, 2012 at 05:38
What is quite funny about this paper is that it seems to be lifted from the pages of Western writing about Russia. Many of us of the first generation of Westerners who flocked to Moscow have become embittered as we have become increasingly irrelevant - and Russia develops not according to our plans, but according to some Russian plan. The remainder of us have gone native - fortunately, one can become at least superficially Russian. The West will have to suffer some serious humiliations before it understands that its own secular model is not the sole option available to all of mankind!
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Elle
August 13, 2012 at 08:14
China is unique and controversial country. Actually ,you can teach your children how to handle the problems,insted of complaining China,that is the point. If they can deal with trouble in China,would other countries be a problem for them?
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Steeevyo
August 13, 2012 at 08:51
Pretty bitter and not very nice way to write about your host country of 16 years. I have been living in China for 4 years now and I was always completely realistic about what to expect and what not. I am also happy to leave China end of this year without a tiny bit of regret and with an invaluable experience that I will treasure for the rest of my life. China is a developing country and the arrogance with which it is judged by the uninformed Western eyes make me feel ashamed to be a Westerner. As for the part about China being a 'Me-culture' that can only be a joke right? The West invented the 'Me-culture' but now suddenly the sophisticated Westerner raises his arrogant nose over the Chinese because they are not as altruistic as his clicheed perception of the Far Far East had made him believe. As for education: Anything that was said could be equally said about South Korea and Japan. That's how they do it in East Asia. Like it or not but South Korea has a vastly superior school education system to the US or the UK for that matter. Who tells you that China won't reach that same level in a few years time? Personal decisions are personal decisions but to mix it in a bitter and highly speculative rant (all these worst case scenario future predictions made me laugh actually) about China doesn't look good on the author.
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pres
August 13, 2012 at 09:25
Every way that you describe China, the people of China, the treatment of foreigners -same exact thing in Korea. It's sad and disgusting.
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happier
August 13, 2012 at 10:21
Excellent article. Many of the points stated are part of the reasons why my wife (who is Taiwanese) and I left China. Education along with the resentment, verbal abuse, systemic distrust, and aggressiveness to foreigners, especially those with a Chinese (or Asian) spouse, were probably the bigger reasons for us. It was pretty much a daily occurrence to receive some stupid comment or the Chinese "tisk" of disapproval when out and about together and weekly occurrence to get a more nasty comment such as people shouting derogatory terms at me or calling my wife a prostitute. Not nice, especially when the kids are around.
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Lee
August 13, 2012 at 10:23
Fantastic article. You have managed to put into words what I never could about living in China. You do sound kind of bitter about the whole experience, however you would certainly not be the first to leave like that. I have so much to say about everything that you have written, that actually, I will say nothing - other than what a great article. Best of luck with your new life in the UK.
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Boris
August 13, 2012 at 10:36
I came back to China in the early '80s from the US to work as a property development consultant. I still spend part of my time in Shanghai from my home base in Hong Kong. "That's" was and still is a good magazine specializing in social events and food/beverage for Shanghai and Beijing. A must read/follow up for any new comers or residents in the two cities. My daughter alerted me to this article and if it was not her urging, I would have stop reading it early on. The article is long and winding while covering too many subjects without a real focus and a good grasp of the history and information. I wish the writer would have gained a more insightful and balanced views about China after living there for 16 years and raising a family instead of giving an emotion-charged view about the country as a farewell message while making unnecessarily negative comments on the country in general and dire predictions on the future of China. Becoming a magazine publisher in China, be it a foreigner or a Chinese, is a tough business to get into. I would have advised him against it.
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yongle
August 13, 2012 at 11:00
Thanks for the article Kitto! I did it and it feels good. With your background it will always be a part of you but taking the bird's eye view is the right step. I left five month ago after years of focus on China (living in the countryside, 2nd tier, and 1st tier cities) in my education and research (also included SOAS at some stage) , professional career, and love for the country and its people. After being on the outside in a place full of fresh air, less people, beautiful nature, the rule of law, genuine encouragement of private business, and above less pollution of the mind (I moved to Chile) I now have a hard time coming back here for short work related trips. Its getting madder and madder. leave the epicenter! If the Chinese government cannot handle other opinions, has to jail and torture people, threaten its own people and neighbors then this only speaks of its own weakness and insecurity. No responsible superpower runs gulags. We have all seen this before. A Brecht poem springs to mind: The Solution After the uprising of the 17th June The Secretary of the Writers Union Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee Stating that the people Had forfeited the confidence of the government And could win it back only By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier In that case for the government To dissolve the people And elect another? Bertolt Brecht
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Jared Goldberg
August 13, 2012 at 11:30
Martin Jacques: Understanding the rise of China puts some of Mark's thoughts and experiences into perspective: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/martin_jacques_understanding_the_rise_of_china.html
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Jags
August 13, 2012 at 12:10
You can almost replace China with India in this story. So many aspects of this story overlaps with India. Corruption, too much focus on wealth, "marks" centric education system, lack of empathy for others. Thanks for your wonderful insight.
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Mark
August 13, 2012 at 12:35
After reading "China Cuckoo" One could only imagine the real hardships,trials & tribulations that Mark & his wife faced, having experienced some of my own Smaller ones whilst living & traveling all over China. Also having then the great fortune of then staying the weekend in their house & the lodge. Mark,all the best in your new journey back in the UK.
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annie morgan
August 13, 2012 at 15:57
Most interesting article, and the comments were even more telling, in my opinion.
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Eric
August 13, 2012 at 16:14
Everyday i meet someone that want to do business with China like if China would be the answer to all our problems. i tried many years and still trying to do business in China and sometimes i feel like, what's wrong with me? Very good article. Should be given to any foreigners travelling to China.
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Dan
August 13, 2012 at 16:35
Great article! I know many Chinese students who - once they've stayed in Europe only for a few months - never want to go back to China. When I ask them, if they want to return and spend the rest of their lives in their homeland, they'd abashedly admit that, in my case, life in Germany is much better. However, most of them kind of fail to elaborate the reasons for that, since - as I figure - the number of reasons speaking against living in China might be way too high to grasp. Just as the author, I felt excluded from Chinese society and rather stuck within a groop of foreigners. I surely practiced more English than Chinese... On the other hand, when I am around my Chinese friends here in Germany, I've never encountered that kind of problem, which all in all was the reason why i cancelled my one-year stay in Beijing after the first semester. I really hope for China to grow into the international community as the banner on the Tian'anmen propagates - “?????????” - and to make out a way to find its place in the world and moreover let others find their place in China....
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Alan
August 13, 2012 at 17:49
I agree with Ganpat, anglo-saxons have a problem in China that French or Italian dont face.they are more respectuous and China has its own behaviour to respect.. And you knew that to be a publisher in China has very restrictive law and is "almost" forbidden for foreigners so you assumed to be illegal and so you were weak against competitors on the legal issues.I am publisher too and in China you cannot be only if you have a local partner withthe majority .Some business like restaurants, consulting, production are more open to foreigners. Publishing doesn't bring any currency to China. China has its own rules and if you come , you are a "guest" never forget it ad it s the same in many emerging countries where you are a foreigner allowed to do business.I think you missed experiences before coming to China or you thought you were too clever .
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Gouranga Das
August 13, 2012 at 18:39
Anybody living in a foreign country will never be seen as indigenous by ALL the locals? Indians suffer this in USA, & UK & Africa - Africans suffer this in Europe, INDIA, Etc, Chinese suffer this in Africa, USA, UK.. this is normal xenophobia based on temporary bodily identity.. fears, envy etc we are eternal spirit soul.. we are not the body.. real spirituality is the only solution to everything.. India i also becoming materialistic about money money.. the same as USA, EU, UK, Africa.. the material consciousness of those in material consciousness is the same.. Of course china and India had to learn form somewhere.. the politicians care for only their wealth is everywhere.. not just China? if we are not getting deeper into real spirituality our selves we have the same problem.. we just dont want to see it, or cannot.. that the nature of the illusion in this world../
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Annett
August 13, 2012 at 18:58
I know what Mr. Kitto wanted to express. In my life there is a real experience. My BF was really nice, but after 4 months in China. He changed so much, if he changed his face, I would definitely ask who are him, have we met before. Now I only can write a dear John with tears.
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PacRim Jim
August 13, 2012 at 19:34
When the collapse comes in China—and it will—whom do you suppose the Chinese will blame? Correct. Everyone other than the Communist Party.
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PacRim Jim
August 13, 2012 at 19:47
Notice no mention of pride in his heritage. His ancestors were as naught.
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JR
August 13, 2012 at 20:13
The same number of problems you faced in the PRC will be equalized in the UK. It won't be all sunny days and bliss in England. Get ready for some downright dreary days.
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Rich K
August 13, 2012 at 20:35
Yeppers, and if it wasn't for American investors installing all that tech and infastructure to get things started China would still be that festering boil it was under Mao.Put that in your China/Love pipe and smoke it.
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BikerDad
August 13, 2012 at 23:15
I am astounded by the number of gratuitous swipes at the United States in the comments. How is it that an article about by a British expat, about his experiences and conclusions regarding living in the People's Republic of China, published by a British magazine on a .UK domain website, gives cause for attacks on the US? Seriously? It's completely irrational. It sounds, based on what Mark says, and also on an article regarding China's lack of money (http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonchang/2012/08/12/china-is-running-out-of-money/) over at Forbes, that China is going to be in for a mighty rough time. Given Mark's experiences, moving on certainly sounds like a rational decision. I hope things go well for him, and for his family wherever it is he decides to land.
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Roosevelt
August 13, 2012 at 23:45
When the initial freshness and exotic feeling fade away, you will find what a fcuking shithole this country really is. You will understand why people in every level of the society are jumping the ship. What 60 years of Communist rule left in this land are 14 billion of zombies, who shares no/minimum common values as human kind from other part of the earth. They are fed by hatred and lies. They get so used to it, they don't feel a thing when watching and reading it on TV and newspapers. The party destroyed every bottom-line of moral values long ago, replaced with a national-with competition for wealth and power to keep people occupied. So People do everything to get on top of the race including poisoning other people's child. As for the "economic miracle", there is really nothing magical here. Making 800 million of those zombies into slaves by taking away everything they own or entitled to is really not ingenious. As for those few who come to realize all these, it's like living in the hell everyday. And what's more important, it's so boring. The information flow is strictly controlled, you only consume what you are fed to. Orwell's 1984 may not be a better place, but won't be worse either.
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AngryErmine
August 14, 2012 at 00:39
If China wasn't already doing much better than America, then he could criticize them from his own home, far away. The fact that he's in China, criticizing a governmental system that has blown the world away, and expecting anyone to listen to him over the Chinese people is ridiculous. They never asked him to come there, and they never asked for his opinion. That's like me inviting myself over to a friends house, trying to be part of there family, and criticizing how they're raising their kids. He doesn't need to worry about people that aren't his own, nevertheless, in a country that doesn't want their culture mutilated. China can, and has already taken care of itself.
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Jing
August 14, 2012 at 05:46
The Westerners will never be accepted or trusted by the Chinese, they will always remain "wai ren" outsider. USA is not any better with the so-called democracy, the extend of greed among the elite and within its financial institution, the destruction of nature from oil spills, overly mining, blood diamonds, the collapse of financial institutions, the bust of the real estate bubble and loses prized AAA credit rating from S&P. Wake up and smell the coffee. The Chinese shall never forget how the Western imperialism looted so much of its culture artifacts and artworks during the second opium war, and many of those offsprings, or some self-made Westerners who sold those work at Christie's and Sotheby's - they are nothing but glamorized thief of a culture long exist and can't stand the current Chinese government from keeping them at bay from taking more from the modern China! Yes, outsiders can never be Chinese because we never trusted you to begin with.
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JH
August 14, 2012 at 05:52
Hi Mark: I'm sorry that life did not work well for you in China. You have to understand that China is a considerably bigger country, both in population and size. Hence, you should expect the competition for you, and your kids, should be considerably bigger. Just like you, I was educated at SOAS, studied in England for 10 years, and time after time again, I was told that I would never be British, despite the fact that I hold an English passport. I think the main difficulty you have settling in China is because you still think like a Brit, you expect things to work like England. Regards, JH
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Passing Comment
August 14, 2012 at 06:04
I can understand Mark's frustration and desire to leave , I have been in China for 2 years and already have a sense of everything he has written. However I think he is suffering from 'The grass is always greener'. Returning to the Uk he will also find a 2 tier education system , if he wants to give his children a decent education it will cost him as much as it would in China. He certainly wont be escaping the 'me' culture he complains about in China , Britian and most of the west has the same culture, worse still as its coupled with an inherant lazyness and entitlement, at least chinese are willing to work to buy their trinkets and look after themselves. Furthermore I fear that his belief that a community/better life awaits for him in rural Norfolk is misplaced. I am affraid that his chinese wife is going to feel about as accepted there as he is in China...
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Harold
August 14, 2012 at 06:18
Ah, I see how this works now... comments which point out the truth of the matter get censored.
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gweiloeye
August 14, 2012 at 06:27
I live in Hong kong and have come to Shanghai for 2 weeks for work and I can see some of the stuff the author is saying. The big cars, crappy overpriced brand names everywhere (yes i am stuck in the Pudong area). And All I can say is "money does not buy class". I am utterly surprised by the "me,me,me" to the point of disregard for human life. Politically I haven't got a chance to see too much of that, so would not deem to comment - not least until I get off the plane back in HK, and don't have to use a VPN to view the web.
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Matt
August 14, 2012 at 07:00
Come on China is a good place for westerners to make money. I looked at a lot of comments here and surprisingly I agree with Ganpat for all he says. he certainly lived in China for several years. Everyone has one's own opinion about China, it depends a lot. No matter what's your job or the amount of RMB you have, you'll never be Chinese. I don't know why so many people think so much about this...
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lolberitarian
August 14, 2012 at 07:50
>implying asians don't suffer from discrimination in the West
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Jack Cameron
August 14, 2012 at 09:57
Ah, Mr Kitto --- Why it seems like only yesterday that you rejected my first submission to That's (October 2000). My, how time flies. It is very bad form, aye, to post a comment without having read the damned copy in question, and be assured I shall. But I needn't. For those who know, and know too well, the title says it all. In lieu of a proper parting-glass then, sir, some terrible but well-intentioned verse: There are strange things done in the Cathay sun By the men who moil for bi, My captain, my captain! Stop all the clocks! Kitto departeth, --- and maybe, next: me. Vale, comdrade.
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AM
August 14, 2012 at 10:11
It'd have been useful if the writer drew some comparisons across other countries. For instance, in the UK, despite all the noise and claims about multiculturalism, Asians are finding that even 2nd and 3rd generation CANNOT be British despite having born and grown in Britain. Whoever said that you could become Chinese in one generation?
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lollerone
August 14, 2012 at 11:21
lol says the one living in Moganshan with lots of money and three guesthouses. I laughed. Go back to the UK and quit whining, there's people working their asses off down here.
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Andy
August 14, 2012 at 12:34
Having grown up in the UK for 26 years as a Chinese ethic, and recently moved to China (2 yrs 8 months), I'll give you my 5 mao (I’ve read every single comment above mine). In my view, you came to China as a communist and have now finally realized after 16 years that the UK is more socialist and communist than China will ever be. Saying that, during the past 16 years in the UK, we have lost our free universities, the pound has severely weakened, and there isn't a neighborhood watch scheme in sight. Give it a couple of years and our medical system will probably be in a shambles. Our trains are too expensive for normal people, and petrol prices are amazing. The opening ceremony of the Olympics was an ode to irony as I've never felt fully part of the UK. Neither will your wife. Where will you move to in the UK? Ready to feel unsafe at night? To look over your shoulder every 5 minutes or cross the road to avoid the chavs grouped around McDs? Are you ready for your kids to develop anti-socialism, or go to schools where 5 year olds own iPads? Ready for a whole different 'me' culture? One where everyone has a right to work, but too good for low end jobs? A community of internships and blaming the foreigner for stealing ‘low’ end jobs? Is your wife ready for more than ‘comments’ of being called a prostitute, perhaps have chewing gum thrown in her hair or getting random people beating her up on the streets for their s*&%ts and giggles? Certainly happened to Chinese people I know, just for being Chinese. As for the comment above about Chinese people leaving China and not wanting to come back. It's certainly not that case for my circle (I guess it really does depend on who you know). Most people I know want to come back to China, but will get the relevant experience before returning, for a better job and career prospect. Unless you're a super whiz kid, the EU citizen would definitely get the job before a Chinese person; racist much? I don't really want to comment on the doomsday scenarios above, as that's all they are. The young kids that I tutor part time are pretty smart and know what's going on in the world. Most young'uns know about VPNs and can read the NYT or The Guardian to get another perspective. Neither of these liberal mediums are blocked, or only blocked on the first click. Also, I know people who are members of the communist party and have rather liberal views. Give your kids a chance and let them grow up in a China that will change in their generation, after the dinosaurs die off. Or let them live in a real civilised country, such as those in Scandinavia.
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gabriel
August 14, 2012 at 12:57
all these gripes can apply to the U.S. Nationalism? Come on! The U.S. drops more bombs than all other countries combined! The U.S. (and it's allies) has the most aggressive foreign policy. The author made heaps of money on a publishing company the gripes that it was taken away...well I could care less. You made heaps of money. No room for whiners. You have a nice house obviously. And like granpat said, your dog eats better than most Chinese (an exaggeration, sure but poignant all the same. In the U.S., the poor get poorer. All this shit is happening in the U.S. too! Totalitarian state? Look Westward for that. Militarized police, small business hostility. No, I think being poor in China is much better than being poor in the U.S. Oh and those lost family values? That's a middle class and bourgeoise thing. China's poor have very strong families. Damn I hate hearing well to do people complain about government. No, the government that bugs me is the one that arrests a Mexican for running a burrito stand outside of Taco Bell in Compton. At least here anyone with a few hundred RMb can bribe. In the U.S. only the rich can afford to do it.
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Ed
August 14, 2012 at 17:24
Just sounds like he is burnt out on China. Yes there is corruption in the gov't (what gov't isnt??), yes there are still poor people in China (with 1.4 billion people its a gigantic challenge to employ everyone in higher paying jobs - just take a look at EU and US too), yes people talk about money here all the time. But true friends, be it chinese or foreigners will ask about family and health as well. Is their social medicine here? No, it cash up front. But it is cheap - a doctor costs as little as 5 rmb. Compare that to the US - also no social medicine but 100x the cost. Which is better? Do they use foreigners here for their expertise? Heck yes. So are you going to be a innocent, naive little sheep and let them? Plenty of opportunities to make money here from Chinese. Granted, publishing has to be a tough one but everyone should know that before they get here given the censorship that occurs. Just look at facebook, google. Pick something else or go somewhere else. Look at all the suckers paying double the (already ridiculous) price in the west for a BMW car or LV bag. Adapt and adjust or it is time to get out and move on. Western countries have their own set of problems. Take a look at how well democratic India is doing as a comparison as well.
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Kate
August 14, 2012 at 18:14
Thank you for writing this article, Mr. Kitto. Everything is absolutely spot on. China is such a beautiful country, it is a shame that the Chinese communist party has ruined 5000 years of wonderful history. They torture their people every single day. Brain wash their children and make them their slaves!!!! Human lives are not valued there, and truth is not welcome. China will never be great under these lying communists. I look forward to the day when these bullies of the world are gone, and the people of China are free again
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Sean D.
August 14, 2012 at 20:18
As for those commenters arguing that the US invented the "me" culture, and is now critical of China for adopting that culture, I would agree. The main difference is that the US has Judeo-Christian values ingrained into the culture and legal system, and those function to balance the radical selfishness of pure capitalism. The strong emphasis on charitable organizations, and the "love thy neighbor" moral imperative softens the brutal realities of capitalism. In China, they have purged themselves of all religion except for Communism, (and make no mistake - it is a religion there), and as a result their 'me' culture reaches logical extremes that would be morally reprehensible and socially unacceptable in the US. As for those comparing China to the US - You need to spend more time in China. Apparently there are a lot of newbies on here who think that their naive opinion is just as valuable as Mr. Kitto's, despite the fact that they've been to China once or twice on vacation, and he has lived there for 17 years. That, unfortunately, is a valid criticism of the US education system. We provide students with poor reasoning skills and loads of confidence, and then tell them to be bold with their opinions! I spend several years in China and this article rings true with my experience, and with the experiences of nearly everyone I know.
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German daddy
August 14, 2012 at 21:12
the article has some very valid points. I spent a very short time in China in the 1980's and lived it despite all the restrictions. Recently, all the people there talk about is money as the author says. That's #1 on their mind. This obsession with brands and status used to be limited to Shanghai and HK but now it is pervasive. It's a change for the worse but seems global right now, from USA to the EU to Australia.
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Christopher Johnson
August 14, 2012 at 22:36
A tiger doesn't eat you because it dislikes you; a tiger eats you because it's a tiger. Is there any precedent in Chinese history for the powerful to consider themselves anything other than tigers?
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Crow
August 14, 2012 at 22:45
Expats that move to a country when it is still in its formative development stages seem to often air a kind of hidden prejudice that would do a Victorian colonialist proud. When the standards of the country develop, suddenly that person isn't standing from above looking down (from that person's perspective). The level playing field, or in many cases the field that is disadvantageous now, suddenly makes things look ugly. Things that change in society become the cause of losing "the good old days." I see it in Japan, and I'm seeing it elsewhere. I don't think the person is even aware of it, to be honest. Once they return to their home country, I think they are in for a shock...since surprise surprise, its the same everywhere else too.
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Barb
August 15, 2012 at 01:26
It was interesting to hear from someone recently in Macao that the huge growth of casinos there can be linked to wealthy Chinese laundering mega-money to get it out of China. Where there's a will, there's a way. China is far too complex for any outsider (and maybe insider) to fully comprehend, but the article says to me that feelings and intuition are telling this man he'd have a better life if he goes soon as he hasn't much power there and never will, and things are not as fun as when he was 22. Lucky for him he has a choice. And there's the crux of the issue. Very few Chinese do have a choice. When I was in Shanghai in the late 90s it seemed the real estate bubble was on the brink of a disastrous implosion and the whole system would have to come crashing down. It didn't. Predicting disaster is always pretty risky. It may indeed be inevitable, but the time frame in unknowable...like, yeah, this place will have a killer earthquake, but only the earth gods know when.
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EdT
August 15, 2012 at 05:46
Looks like the author is bitter because he will never become Chinese ! ...LoL I wonder why the CPC did not get rid of him sooner rather they made his life more difficult so he'll leave on his own terms and good riddance ! So he mentions the Opium Wars, without mentioning the causes of it and which of the thieving nations aka Eight Nations Alliance were involved which is more or less the same group of nations that belong to that exclusive clique known as the G8 today, really how did Russia become a member when China has the second largest economy ? The Chinese have a long memory they do not forget and they have learned their lesson to not be so naive that behind every Westerner with a fictitious smile is welding a dagger !
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Gabriel
August 15, 2012 at 08:42
I have found Chinese people, the common people not so much the middle and upper classes, incredibly kind and generous. I overpay them for a soda or food from a street vendor, and they practically chase me down the street with correct change. The meek shall inherit the earth.
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Diplomad
August 15, 2012 at 09:38
In my blog, The Diplomad 2.0, I wrote about all this China fantasy some months ago at http://thediplomad.blogspot.com/2012/04/chinas-century-not-if-we-dont-give-it.html Glad to see others are agreeing . . .
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Chav
August 15, 2012 at 11:33
@Andy. It's relatively easy for a Chinese citizen to hold a foreign passport as well as their PRC travel document. It's also very common. The wealthier and more educated you are in China the more likely this will be. However, it's besides the point. Still with the pedantry I see. Another likely scenario is one or more members of the family holding Australian or Canadian cit. then coming back to work and support the family in China. Due to lenient immigration laws once one member of the family holds citizenship it's more or less a given that the whole family can get out. You can also retain your Chinese Hukou even long after leaving China through various means. You may be very optimistic and trusting about the PRC govt but the Chinese certainly aren't. Least of all those who are involved in it.
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Chav
August 15, 2012 at 11:55
"Author: Ian Comment: Mark knows more about China than most foreigners in country ever will. He's not American. The magazines are no worse than those published by the Chinese. (I doubt you can read Chinese, however). They served a purpose and were highly successful. This is why they were confiscated. The pretext under which it was done is irrelevant. If you had any real experience in this country you would know that these things happen to successful businesses all the time, especially those run by foreigners. The comments about the economy and government are of extreme importance". ^^ THIS ^^ You can tell at a glance who amongst the commenters has logged serious time in China and who are the tourists. It's amazing that freaking English teachers with months in China are slamming a guy who has seen and done more than 99 percent of Zhonguo tongs.
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R. Eaton
August 15, 2012 at 13:03
An interesting piece, Mark. I enjoyed my two stays at your place in the hills and our one or two brief conversations. There are now indeed international boarding schools in Shanghai (YK Pao, for example), and an ever increasing number of International Schools that accept an unlimited amount of Chinese students. Local governments have invested heavily in many such organizations (see SUIS Wan Yuan City US HIgh School, as a case in point). Yes, China is beset with challenges, but sadly this article comes accross as a bit too biased. For an interesting alternative that might help readers come to more balanced conclusions about contemporary East/West differences, I recommend The Geography of Thought by Richard Nisbett. I empathize with many of the things that happened to Mark over the years. Living and working in China is not for the faint of heart. Yet working and contributing to Chinese society still offers many rewards and I applaud those who continue to toil, particularly my colleague in the education sector.
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Wayne
August 15, 2012 at 13:11
China has way better human rights than the US. For one it has not murdered close to a million completely innocent citizens over the past couple of decades like the US has, and for another China's imprisonment rate is about 1/7th that of the US (which has the highest rate in the world). Compare the imprisonment rate for minorities like blacks and Hispanics in the US, with minorities in China. Who is the biggest human rights offender in the world. It is obviously the US. Good riddance to this hypocrite and his family.
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Wayne
August 15, 2012 at 13:22
Anti-imperialist does not mean anti-foreign. The fact is China was bullied by Western imperialists for well over one hundred years, starting with the Opium Wars. China should present a bill to Britain and other imperialist countries for payback. The West should be grateful that China has, so far at least, chosen not to do so. If China had invaded the West, burnt down Buckingham Palace, flooded Britain with narcotics at the point of a gun, and demanded that Chinese be able to offend Britain's laws with impunity (in Britain), then I think the British would be mildly pissed about it, to say the very least.
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Allegra
August 15, 2012 at 13:30
I find it more interesting to read all the comments.......thank you all!
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Alex Calding
August 15, 2012 at 14:10
Sad news! An independent, albeit highly cliched and contrived voice is leaving China. Forced from his self-declared media "tycoon" throne by insulted and annoyed female staff with who Mr Kitto had taken to-change-china dream a little too tactile and which his wife was not in-complicit in, Mr Kitto fled the country once in 2004. Vowed never to return. Forced back by the aggravations of self-imposed exile. There were kids, after all. So he went rural and set up a lodge in the mountains and leach urban yuan out of his mainly foreign clientele. There he found the time to write bitterly about "his" China - cliche-ridden, like the essay above, and creatively titled "to chase China" (a rip-off of J.K. Fairbank's classic 'to change China'). Now he is leaving China to give his kids a decent education? One may wonder if he's ever considered the challenges of decent schooling when moving into the mountains in Moganshan where there are no international schools that do not represent 'test centers' but which implement US or European curricula and which tend to be found aplenty in China's larger cities. Of course, there was to be found a lot of quietude and maudlin sunsets under which Mr Kitto poured out his grievances about China, corruption, social and economic and personal injustices, etcetera etcetera. And an transient audience that would listen to him, over a beer or two, happy to escape urban pollution for a day or two. They would take with them memories of the clean, crisp air of the Moganshan bamboo forest - and nothing else. An so nothing will remain of Mr Kitto's self-serving stories and "observations" in and about China. One may indeed wonder - as he did himself when an undergrad student in the UK - if all his studies have been in vain. I do wish him and his family all the best of luck! Alex Calding
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Anna Milos
August 15, 2012 at 14:22
You write a purely stereotypical article based on nothing solid and even if you do live in "China," you don't really know the country. Yes, it's true that the growing economy widens the gap between the rich and poor and inflation is rampant. But based on everything that you wrote, it seems that what you really fear is Communism and corruption. You're absolutely right, you never really will be Chinese because you don't understand the Chinese way of life. As a foreigner, you always think you got it, but really, you're just beating around the bush. As for the corruption, what government isn't corrupt? Is the sky blue? It seems to me that all you loved were the old days, when you were making a fortune in a poor China. Now, everyone else has nabbed a piece of the pie and you all of a sudden you feel that you can't live amongst people whose pocketbooks are almost as thick as your own. I want know, in all your years living in China, have you ever actually seen China? Walked down a busy city street and observed the people? Played Chinese Chess in a park surrounded by old people? Stopped on the side of the street to buy a magazine or some street food? If you really look, and don't look too hard cause you might find yourself writing some other damn article, you'll see that China is really nothing like how you describe it. I think that you should leave China. Soon. You have too many issues with the country because unlike some 20 years ago, foreigners are no longer the awe of the nation. I bet that's what's really getting to you. Yet, you claim in this article that you're leaving because you'll never really be Chinese. Well, I have to say that having a Chinese wife doesn't make you any more Chinese than going to Church makes you a Christian. It's the attitude that makes all the difference. And all those comments you made about the economy and government? Please, what cheap textbook did you copy THAT out of? Please, don't write any more articles about your personal relationship with China. Grow some balls, would you?
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Tobias W.
August 15, 2012 at 15:15
Thanks for this article. I have never lived in China, although I visit at least once a year, sometimes for weeks, to visit the in-laws as my wife is Chinese. Based upon my wife's experience, growing up in China and from my short stays and reading various books from expats I have deducted most of points that Mark made. I also think that the real estate bubble bursting will potentially be the next big history defining event. My wife used to work in an agency that helped rich and privileged Chinese to apply for foreign visas, passports and applying at expensive private schools in the west. Once the bubble bursts, all those corrupt, semi-criminal thugs with privileges will move over to Canada, when they cannot sustain their existences and privileges in China anymore. Have fun, Canada...
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Jay
August 15, 2012 at 20:07
Quite provocative and undeniably accurate. For any outsider who has lived in China for any length of time (for my part, nearly a decade), the realisation you will surely never fit in is as clear as the Sun and the Moon. While living in a foreign country has many challenges, few compare to China. Wonderful connections are indeed possible. However, they are far from the norm. Chinese society, particularly the Han majority, is exclusionary. Not merely toward weiguoren, but also toward other Chinese. Many look down on others, regardless of societal position. This is as much true within families, as it is business and schools. I can’t help but chuckle whenever Chinese claim to have a 5,000 year old civilization. The term civilization can only be made by a civilized people; which the Chinese are no longer, on any level. Mark Kitoo’s article may be the result of burn out; of now jaded outlook. However, it is also the result of someone trying their very utmost to become part of a society which would never become part of him. This final realisation is shocking and hurtful, at first. However, with insight, rest and after a time with relatively well-adjusted people, we can recover our sense of humanity which was so long threatening to depart us as it has those formerly around us. To the revisionist historians, offering their ill-informed comments: While it is true conquerors of old (most notably the Mongol and Manchu) established their own states within China, so much of China established itself on the newcomers. At a time when civilization, culture, science and the foundations of state flourished in China these new powers found themselves absorbed within the greater mass.
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Angela
August 15, 2012 at 20:26
Although I agree with some of the points in this article, I can't deny some disappointment for not reading even a small mention about why foreigners (read Westerners) are not trusted in China, it's sad to see that we are still so arrogant that despite whatever we did, and we still do, we demand the world to welcome and trust us as if nothing happened. I lived both in London and in Shanghai, I wish I could go back to live in China straight away.
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FD
August 15, 2012 at 20:28
Oops. My name should have appeared as FD. "Jay" was courtesy of my eldest child, as I stepped away for a minute.
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Olesya
August 15, 2012 at 22:19
Please leave China and stop writing bad articles. "To rise to the top you must be grey, with no strong views or ideas." Really?
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Raydar
August 16, 2012 at 04:40
As a Chinese born and lived in China for the last some 30 years, I have great sympathy with Mark's feelings and experiences. I felt I'm increasingly alienated in the same way as Mark put it in today's China society, the good old days(aka the 80s) are gone and the old traditions collapsed. In urban areas, life is reduced to this dog eat dog game and seeking instant material pleasure in houses, cars, foods, sex during its short breaks. As someone worked briefly with Mark I feel so sorry about his China dream to build a mountain top happy land couldn't work out and continue. I hope he could relive his dream some day in the future.
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Longcours
August 16, 2012 at 04:54
@Andy: it is illegal for Chinese citizens to old dual citizenship, but not for UK or French ones, for instance. So the UK or France, for instance, do not control whether the person has another passport - and China does not suspect this exists because it is not supposed to exist and would not be recognised by it if it found it. So you do have Chinese people who - acquire foreign passports - without giving up their Chinese passport Then, they have to keep a working trail of visas on one or the other passport, depending where they actually live, whether they have to show their passport or just a residency card when arriving back in Europe, and ensure to create no suspicious situation when arriving in China. Impossible it is not. Easy it isn't either, leading many people to just give up on it. All the above I know not from hear-say but from personal contacts, you may believe it.
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John
August 16, 2012 at 06:29
I have a friend in Beijing. She is a published writer; her parents are illiterate. I think we sometimes tend to forget where China has come from in a very short time. Recovering from a serious illness last year taught me that improvement involves backward steps too. I think, as Westerners in China, we need to, and are better served, by keeping this in mind.
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FD
August 16, 2012 at 06:29
@Andy, @Longcours: "Serious fail" and "Stupid" is the best you can come up with? Upon what do you base your assertions? All points are worth arguing. But, try doing so on some basis of intellect and background information/experience. The point I made about Chinese being uncivilsed is really a summary of my earlier points; similar to what others have written in this thread. While I do not agree with posts made by Ganpat, Anna Millos and a few others they at least have something to base their comments on and do so very well. As for passports, many Chinese (who have the affluence and/or guanxi) hold foreign passports while living in China. They either re-enter China as "foreigners" or simply hide the fact they have these passports. Maintaining their hukou allows the latter to go about their business, as other Chinese. Lastly, having a '5000 year civilization/history' is a common belief among Chinese. Despite altered history books, there is considerable evidence to base such a claim upon. Very few extant cultures can do likewise.
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Chav
August 16, 2012 at 07:31
Sigh... Re: The passport issue again. It's all a bit besides the point. It really isn't that material besides being a way for corrupt officials to funnel their wealth out of China and secure their exit if need be. Or for recent arrivals to work the system by playing both sides. Again, I point to the Bo Xilai scandal as means of highlighting how the elite and powerful live in this country. It's happening right in front of you. If you need a lesson in how the system here works to sanitize, deny and proof itself against criticism you need only look here. The way the whole situation is being twisted and neutralized should nauseate and horrify anyone who cares about the Chinese people. I've never met Mark, I don't know what kind of a guy he is and I only can guess at it through his work. But having read the article it definitely touches on certain truths of what it's like to live in modern China. Certain people don't like that. Because it clashes with their ideals, their sensibilities, their politics or their livelihood. This last is significant I think. I find that the most rabid of China apologists are the ones that have based a career or a lifestyle on being some sort of China expert. Academics, consultants, business people whatever... etc... etc... These types are especially prone to this. They've got a lot invested in the "new" China and feel defensive about it. That's fine, but it leads to irrational behavior such as vehemently attacking a writer for expressing an opinion on China that is anything other than complementary and optimistic. Personally I don't think any thinking person in the PRC can be anything other than skeptical and yes even a bit cynical about the current system. And like it or not - the current system dictates how almost everyone and everything thinks and behaves. Mark is generally correct in his broad strokes here and the overall tone is appropriate for what he is saying. As far as taking digs at some posters here. Guilty as charged. Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion but if you want to air it publicly and without a shred of support nor the basic writing and editing skills to make yourself understood then you'd better be prepared to attract some flak. And if you want to attack someone with that depth of China experience and accomplishment then you'd better have some serious chops. I'm not one of those gate-keepers that thinks that only seasoned China hands get to comment on the Sinosphere. Fire at will, but be aware that if you've got less than five years of full time living in China and a less-than-accomplished control of written and spoken Mandarin then you're as likely to end up shooting your own foot off. See Andy, who somehow seems to have wandered into the room convinced that this is a discussion about being Chinese in the U.K. It's going to be two to three years before you really begin to get a handle on what's going on around you in the mainland and five before you reach deep understanding. Anna I'm not so sure about. She's either an expat brat in Hongqiao attending the American school or a Peace Corps or other NGO worker who is very angry about something and should probably seek help.
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Chav
August 16, 2012 at 10:24
" Bit off conversation, but so many ‘lao wai’ bring up the topic of unfair land grabs by the government, but I hear constantly how the farmer next door was given a free apartment, while they had to work their asses off for 25 years to afford it. Most normal people think they are being compensated too much." This is what I'm talking about. What does this even mean? What is this gibberish? Are you against the laowai (of which you are one) for bringing up the topic of unfairness? You agree with the idea that it's unfair but don't want to side with the laowai? You are for the free apartments? Against them? You disagree with the laowai and think the land grabs are fair because poor people are getting apartments? Think that the "normal" people are poorly paid? Nobody has any idea what your point is. Get it together man.
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Eric Leleu
August 16, 2012 at 11:18
How could someone live in a country for life if he will never become a local, always a "laowai", finger-pointed, set-apart ? China is still a closed country and might remain so. Even we face problems with our foreigners and assimilated in France, it is my biggest proud about France: anyone can become French, you could meet French people from very different backgrounds and that is the biggest wealth ! It is not quantifiable. It is like nature: if you plant the very same essence of a tree over hectares, if a disease appears they all die. If you have biodiversity, you will get more resilience and every single tree will protect its neighbor. Differences makes strength... I have been living in China for 8 years and I long lost the hope to one day become Chinese. I am outside and will always be, I know it. So i know i will leave one day. So i live in a different way compared to the situation in which I might have the hope to become chinese... By the way, I am the photographer for the article. I met Mark Kitto in Moganshan over a weekend last year. He is truly a great personality. Bravo Mark for this article! Let's keep in touch. If you want to see more photos of him: www.ericleleu.com
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Eric Leleu
August 16, 2012 at 13:20
Longcours, I agree that the situation is far from being perfect in France. But still quite a few steps further than the situation in China for foreigners... What amuse me is the reaction of Chinese people when i tell them: "you can become French, I can not become Chinese". They surprisingly seem surprised ;)
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Emma
August 16, 2012 at 14:17
I don't think anyone knows what's really going on here. After 16 years in China, Mark Kitto has finally decided to leave the country. He claims that he is leaving for two reasons: 1) his competitors/enemies are analyzing his magazines too closely and 2) the government is interfering with his business and he can't take it. These are two very good reasons for leaving, but I really hope that he can come up with better excuses the next time that he decides to leave a country. His competitors are analyzing his magazines in secret and he can't take it lying down. WTF? It's called competition and businesses around the world do it. Don't come to America after China because the things that American businesses will do to you will make China look like charity work (i.e. Apple and Microsoft). Secondly, China is now more capitalist that Communist (think twice before commenting). There is no country on this entire planet that will allow you to operate a business without any interference. All governments will come into contact with their country's businesses at some time. Kitto thinks that because he's a Westerner, he can be an exemption. He probably pissed some people off too with his haughtiness and arrogance. Shows just how much he really understands China. So Kitto's really afraid of two things from the Chinese people: competition and regulation. Yeah, typical. But before he leaves he decides, "Hey, if I can't have a good time here, then no one will! I'll just say some crap about the country and the government so I can make myself feel better about leaving. Yeah, that's what I'll do." That's what this article is. It's a list of complaints that serve no real purpose and it's full of things that everyone has already said and has been saying ever since China starting moving towards world-superpower status. Kitto hasn't really been living in the "real" China, he lives in Moganshan. It's full of foreigners, that's what the mountain is for, it's a tourist area. Usually, tourists are least-knowledgable of all peoples about the country that they are visiting, it's why they're there, to learn! It's the natives who should be even considering writing this article. But Kitto just doesn't get that. My final word for Kitto is to rethink his decision in writing this article. The guy is an intelligent businessman with a wonderful family, he's lived in China (his supposed "love") for 16 years and now, he's got a case of the sour grapes so he decides that he's going to leave. I thought he knew better, seeing as he is a grown man, a business man, and most importantly of all, a family man. I thought that he would have the sense to be a class act and bow out gracefully. Wouldn't that speak volumes more than writing a letter of complaint?
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Ohhhh
August 16, 2012 at 14:36
with all these comments is anyone actually still reading the article? i stopped a long ago and now i'm watching the comment wars!
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Penguin
August 16, 2012 at 16:13
As a Chinese who studied in an Ivy league college for 4 years, I have similar although not as strong feelings as you. I feel I can never become an American, for better or for worse. No matter how hard I tried, there was a thin wall that separated me from my white friends. BUT there's nothing wrong with that. The world is meant to be a big place, and sometimes there's nothing wrong with just being myself, in my case, a Chinese, and in your case, an American or else. I'm much younger than you, but like yourself, I used to have extremely negative opinions of the foreign land I lived in after a few years. I used to believe US is in an inevitable decline, its people arrogant and imposing. All I saw was the political disater in Washington, the spoiled workers' unions, and the occupy wall street, like that was US is all about. But nope, the world doesn't revolve around me. Regardless of how strongly I felt, I was wrong. US is still an extraodinary country, and will probably continue to be for a long time. In your case, your knowledge of Chinese history appears to be very limited and misguided, and therefore I don't agree at all with your prediction of where Chinese society is heading. If you actually know Chen Guangchen, Liu Xiaobo, and Ai Weiwei (less so), and what they're proposing, you'd realize how laugable to use them to represent the hope of China. On the business issues in China, I do have a lot of sympathies for you. I know how the competition can be brutal and indeed sinister, and people play dirty to wipe out their rivals, especially foreign ones. Sorry that China doesn't work out for you. But I wish you best of luck finding somewhere else that you may call home.
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St John Rylance
August 16, 2012 at 20:17
Emma: "The US has been prospering for over 50 years! That's a long time! How old are you? 12?
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St John Rylance
August 16, 2012 at 20:40
Yes, and if Romney wins and gives huge tax cute to the richest 1% no doubt there will be more American billionaires created. So what? You didn't answer my question. I doubt many Chinese people would think "over 50 years" is a long time in the course of history. Not really sure why you're attacking the article anyway, you seem far more interested in trashing Europe than anything else.
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Emma
August 16, 2012 at 22:01
Just how big of a deal is this Kitto, really? Most of his sympathizers are people that know him or have visited him in Moganshan, and I would know because a lot of comments on this article start with "I knew him," "I worked with him," and "I visited him." So obviously, these people are going to support him. But I don't see the UK government going into some sort of a frenzy over this, requesting that the Chinese government apologize to Kitto. Nor is the Chinese government really expressing any sorrow at his departure. Gosh, the Koh-i-Noor is more famous that he is. The Indian government specifically asked for it from the British when they came over to visit India. It's news that he's leaving, but someone will take his place in the end. Even if there is so much bad stuff going on in China, investors and businessmen are still keen on making a fortune there. It's still a great place to do business and much safer than Somalia, I might add. China needs the world and the world needs China. It's that simple. I can recall a time not so long ago when the UK was polluting the world with their factories. The British Industrial Revolution. What about "The Jungle" by Sinclair about the American meat industry? It's the exact same thing. China is going through what most other developed countries already went through, and it's facing the exact same problems. About the pollution problem, there isn't a place on earth today that isn't polluted to some degree and it's certainly not China's fault. It's the oil rigs that does most of the polluting these days and they are mostly located in the ocean. BP is a British company based in London, UK and it was their company that spilt that oil in the Gulf. I think they're still not completely done cleaning that mess up. I don't think China would try and hide an oil spill because it's kinda big and hard to hide… Also, long before China became a world superpower, no one could safely drink from any lake, river, or pond in the world. They still can't. If you look on the Forbes website which shows the Top 10 countries that produce the most trash, you'll probably be shocked to see that China isn't even in the Top 10 but Russia (2), Japan (3), Germany (4), UK (5), France (7), Italy (8), and Spain (9) are. Before you go accusing China of spinning out of control, check the facts from a credible source. If anyone asks, I'll be happy to give them all of my sources. Also, as for the corruption, China's not even in the Top 10 and there were at least 3 ties between 3 different countries. The least corrupt were FInland and Denmark, but no one seems to know that because they all think its their own country. What about the Sichuan earthquake? The Chinese government responded fast and promptly, critics even said that the Chinese government did a better job than the Bush Administration did with Hurricane Katrina. However, in terms of the most polluted places in the world, the Top 2 are Chinese cities, Linfen and Tianying, cities which were never mentioned by Kitto. Something a bit more interesting, the world's most obese countries. I'm sure everyone here knows that the US ranks No. 1 in that department, but what about the UK? They rank No. 7. Canada and Australia? No. 6 and 5, respectively. Ireland's after the UK. And the debt, that's what really matters. Debt is what makes your credit score go down and the loan sharks come after you. I can say that as bad as the US economy is, it's no match for the UK, who is the second most in debt nation in the world with a whopping Gross External Debt of $10.157 trillion. First is Ireland, just so you know. China didn't even touch the list because they have a surplus. But I can't say the same for France (9) and Germany (14). Maybe we should use facts and statistics to explain the situation in China and the world instead of basing everything that we say off of the words of Kitto. It's more dependable and definitely more credible. China doesn't have to care about what the rest of the world says because it's all there, in plain sight, who is stable and who is going to be asking their friends to pick up the next bar tab for them.
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Leah
August 16, 2012 at 23:20
I read this article with great interest because I had the realisation that I'll never be Chinese about 2 years ago. I never will be Chinese and I don't want to be. And my Chinese friends and associates don't want me to be either. The other interesting point for me from the article is that I know several people who have lived in China for many years who have or are planning to leave. I lived there for 13 years. A good friend for 20 years. A relative of mine for 17 years. The question for me is 'Is this trend for longtimers to leave an age / natural development thing in that as you get more mature your needs and priorities change or is it China?' I returned to the UK at the beginning of this year because 'things' are a foot in China. Difficult to say what exactly but the feel of the place has changed. I also returned to the UK because I want to grow roots, be closer to family and feel permanent instead of temporary. These are personal reasons. 13 years ago it was a friendly place, even in Shanghai (!). Now, there seems to be a frenetic and frenzied atmosphere (in Shanghai). Attitude towards foreigners in Shanghai has changed. Mark Kitto talks about optimism. That is what I felt and noticed when I moved there in 1999. Now, I would describe the atmosphere as one of frustration in Shanghai (I can only talk about the place I lived). I have wonderful memories and good friends in China. I've visited twice in the past 7 months for work and, for me, it's a great place to visit and I'm happy to return to my home in the UK where the pace of life is slower. Maybe the change is in me - I'm 13 years older, have a fatty liver and don't need to grasp opportunities any more. Life is good.
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laowai
August 17, 2012 at 03:46
1. Mark is right: China is getting worse. Liberties are taken away. Grip on people increases. Censorship, lawlessness, dilettantism on the rise. Education sucks. Economy is tinkered with, bubbles will soon burst. Inequality is on the rise. Smart Chinese desert and emigrate in groves. True. 2. The "That's Guangzhou" and its later branches really sucked from the beginning. Content was primitive, ads were abundant (who doesn't hate ads?), and most importantly, it was a disturbing paradox from the beginning. When it started in 1997 it was already illegal. And Mark should have known that. Now, I always respect the law at any cost, it is not negotiable to me, so Mark bought a ticket for a rough ride by giving his name to an illegal venture in the first place. I would have advised him to STOP that magazine and do something legal instead. 3. In general if you play with the fire, you will get burned. If you fly high, you will fall deep. Etc, I am not an English native to come up with good idioms and sayings, but I hope you get the point... The Chinese leaders has ALWAYS been like that in history. Now, if you know they are corrupt but still need their guanxi...you must be naive to think they will treat YOU differently. My philosophy is STAY LOW IN CHINA. 4. Re Moganshan, starting anything related to renting property is a no-brainer, too: in China nobody can own land. Hence any operation pertinent to real estate is a gamble. Again, one should not be surprised, one can foresee these. 5. Education was mama huhu ca 3300 years ago, since then it sucked and sucks in China. Again, nothing new, and expecting that anything will change is naive at best. Action-réaction en français: without a proper force no action should be expected. Just like in the USA and many other paper tiger countries, where education is NOT the interest of the ruling mafia (=govt), education will be kept underdeveloped to churn out enough idiots to make those bastards on the top rich. A UK move is slightly better, but if Mark wants really good education for his kids, he should go to Germany or Japan. These countries lost WW2 and are today's most advanced countries (surprise? no way). 6. Foreigners should never forget in China that the locals envy them for their magic passports. Chinese people cannot just leave if they had enough. Foreigners can. This inherent injustice makes most Chinese bitter. It's like when a prison guard enters a prison. The inmates know they can never leave, while this happy chap is telling them jokes and has a good time, knowing he has a key and can leave anytime. No wonder Chinese people don't like foreigners. Add to this history (we "stupid white men" usually went to China to rob them of their treasures or humiliate them with weapons), and you cannot be too surprised that they just think we are barbarians. They have all the right to think that of us, we deserved it (slavery, colonialism, and most recently our pathetic neocolonization efforts disguised as "globalization"). The Emperor has no clothes, and proud ancient cultures like Egypt, Persia, the Aztecs, Incas, Mayas, the Hindus, the entire Islamic world and the Chinese all had enough of a bunch of drunk immoral white people dictating world order. So we should really walk softly, talk and behave modestly to appear less "confrontational" to a civilized Chinese person... I think. 7. Having said that, Mark is only rational and correct with his decision to try his luck elsewhere. No doubt China is facing enormous problems (mostly self-induced ones and mentioned in the article and also in some comments) very soon and God knows if it will ex- or implode of this burden. Certainly it will be better outside than inside. Wise choice. And how much it took depends on the person. The average threshold a foreigner takes to realize that China never changes and s/he will never be welcome there is ten years. Some realize this simple fact faster, some slower. It is all OK. Sorry for my poor English, but I hope the message went through... no hard feelings, I did not intend to criticize anyone in person, just have some strong ideas here, myself having lived more-than-enough in China and having this love-and-hate feelings still. China is a great country IMHO because it is so paradox. The world is paradox, and China is the country that resembles reality of this paradox world the most. Other countries are too predictable. :-) Mark, I would rather suggest South America (Brazil? Chile? Uruguay?), Turkey or Morocco, India or Indonesia as your next move. The UK and Europe is pathetic these years and it is only going to get worse methinks. You will get depressed in the UK in a few weeks and you will long to be back to China... :-) I hope you can come up with some more innovative ideas than an illegal magazine for laowais in China or a coffeeshop like those losers operate by the dozens in Dali-Lijiang and elsewhere in big cities. These are "me too" brainless business ideas... I think your best one was metal trade so far, at least it makes this world a better one a bit. :-) Cheers
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Daniel
August 17, 2012 at 05:42
that's because you never actually loved this country, in my eyes, things are so different from what you said and experience in China. It's starting to catch up with the "advanced country", you came to this country out of loving it, only by your curiosity.which is not convinceable. I'm glad that u finally made a good choice by leaving this country you "loved".Adios amigo.
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Joe
August 17, 2012 at 05:51
Why Mark? China sucks because my white privelage hasn't got me where I wanted to be.
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John
August 17, 2012 at 06:28
When I first arrived in China I used to frequent a tea shop near the West Gate of Beijing University. I never bought anything but spent hours inflicting my awful Chinese on the owner. After some months a Spanish friend pointed out to me that whenever we went into the shop the owner would change the tea to the best he had without mentioning anything. China is a profoundly civilised country. Perhaps not in the same way as the west but that's what makes it wonderful to be there. I can't wait to get back.
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Laowai
August 17, 2012 at 06:45
Emma, the Sichuan earthquake? Are you serious? do you know that there are still thousands buried in the mud? All your other arguments for example the trash, just lame. surely less material is going to the dumb in china, that's simply because to many people live in poverty collecting it. I take any bet if we compare people living in comparable standards the Chinese create significantly more waste than Europeans, especially food is wasted in astonishing amounts in China. Ahh anyway, as we all know you are Chinese and you are payed for posting this crap on foreign websites, So before releasing your next empty hulled propaganda brain fart, please keep in mind that no one of us could speak our mind on a site hosted in china, because immediately deleted by the authorities, fair game eh? So how do you dare to come here and pollute our servers , giving us a speech about how wrong we are? Go play on weibo, that's were you belong, but i guess you would be ripped apart there, by your own brothers and sisters, how amusing.
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Nick
August 17, 2012 at 11:50
Mark - I also live an work in China, I read your book and in fairness you choose to take on the establishment running the business on the edge of legality and in that case when you get stung it is hardly a shock. With regards to your article there are many good points but I feel some are not representative of what I see. Education - my daughter has just graduated from junior education, she can speak 2 languages fluently and does maths to a standard that eclipses my brothers kids in the UK and they are 4 years ahead of her.........! It is a test centre I agree but in turn feel the lack of competativeness in state schools has contributed to the resons the majority of Olympic medals won by the UK came from people who had private education. I detest the "its not winning its the taking part" attitude taught in the UK, life is about winnng and loosing, get over it! Being Chinese - I agree, a Laowai in China is as you state, you will always be an outsider even with a Chinese wife but then China did not ask me to come here, I asked them to let me in and as such abide by the rules - its their country and I am guest. One of the reasons I left the UK was I hated to feel like a second rate citizen in my own country and like Mark I am ex military, I once loved my country and resent seeing it in my eyes being given away. Also did Mark apply to change his nationality to become Chinese or prefer to enjoy the privilage of a European passport, something the privelaged in China seem to buy these days. There is a lot of what is said in the article correct but then many of the points can be leveled at many "democratic" countries as well, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence so I wish Mark good luck in his move, I hope he finds the life he seeks for his family in the UK
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John Delius
August 17, 2012 at 12:35
In an earlier article Mark attributed the hugely disappointing loss of his businesses through deliberate fraud and deception by Chinese officials, to the Chinese being 'uncivilised'. But the ethical virtues he didn't find - like honesty, keeping your word, treating foreigners fairly - are part of the Protestant Christian ethic. Chinese society is 'civilised' but not in any sense 'Christian'.
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Alexandra
August 17, 2012 at 14:06
A lot of information about chinese thinking and intending to do we could find in "China is angry" (?????) just about the "great" territory of the neighboring countries, and that if they are not in the center of the world now - it is a matter of time.
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David-in-China
August 17, 2012 at 19:46
You can’t help feeling for Mark Kitto can you? First of all he makes a small fortune building up a multi-million dollar publishing business in a naïve third world country hungry for change (it’s called “opportunism” Mark; I wonder if you could have done the same in your own country at that time) which is then snatched from him by people who are trying to build up their country and don’t find his kind of ‘contribution’ to the situation particularly helpful. He then retreats (like the sahibs and memsahibs of nineteenth century India) to the peace and solitude of a fashionable hill station that was built (mostly by the British, coincidentally) as an escape from the heat and bustle of Shanghai in the nineteen twenties and thirties. (“No dogs or Chinese” – remember?) But even there his tormentors won’t leave him alone. He is haunted by the fear that his current semi-colonial lifestyle, also, will somehow be taken away from him. How dare they? Anyone would think it was their country! Faced with the prospect of having to move back to the UK, he realises that, like the rest of the English middleclass, he will soon have to start finding money for the mortgage; the kids’ education; the holidays in the Dordogne; the wife’s four-by-four; etc. But hey, no problem! With his long experience of China he could set himself up as a Zhongguo Tong and make a living writing about China – providing, of course, that he sticks rigorously to vilifying China and writing only about what editors want their readers to read. I have been a regular visitor to China for very nearly twenty years. Being from a poor working class background myself, (and therefore not quite as clever with words as some contributors) I have been proud to have married into a revolutionary family, two generations of which sacrificed their youth to rid their country of people like Mark Kitto and turn China over to the Chinese people. Mark Kitto’s mistake is that he doesn’t have quite this feeling and doesn’t realise that the process is still ongoing. I have never met Mark Kitto personally but can claim to ‘know’ him by virtue of the endless hours and days and weeks of listening to ex-pats with similar attitudes bitching and moaning and complaining about a country they struggle to understand, apparently hate, but are, nevertheless, free to leave whenever they want. In a similar way, although I have never personally met the "hundreds of well-rounded, wise Chinese people with a modern world view" that Mark Kitto talks about, I do ‘know’ them – trust me I know them! And I also know that I could turn their views around once they understand that they are not talking to some white, middleclass, neo-colonialist but to someone who genuinely wants the best for the ORDINARY Chinese people. A people who have suffered so much over the last three hundred years – precisely from people with attitudes not too dissimilar to those of Mark Kitto. I believe the mistake we are all making is that we don't see the big picture. We want jam today. It took three hundred years for the West to destroy China (yes, I know it's not quite that simply; but the point is made) and China will not get back on its feet in just a couple of decades. Furthermore, it will NEVER be what most of us (especially Mark Kitto) would want it to be. Why don't we get that at least? (Hey, just my view! Be gentle with me!)
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Bobba
August 18, 2012 at 21:53
Western college students are useless, brainwashed, and drowning in debt. You want to give that to your children?
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Dr. Rick Sjoquist
August 18, 2012 at 21:56
Mark, I'd like to applaud you for writing what I consider to be the most succinctly accurate portrayal of contemporary China I have read to date. I also appreciate your even-handed tone, your lack of Western presumption, and of course your personal insight. The leaders of China are holding the wolf by the ears, as Thomas Jefferson once aptly noted about the dilemma of slavery. I think they know it, though they probably don't care to dwell on it. One false move and the Chinese public will bite back. I don't wish to imply that I'm an apologist, mind you, only that after living and teaching in this nation for the better part of the last decade and a half I have come to appreciate the quandry confronted by the boys of Zhongnanhai. It is a Faustian bargain, to be sure, that they have made. In their arrogance, they have publicly stated (and might actually believe) that they can retain socialism while developing a thriving market economy. In essence, they believe (or would have us believe) they can have their cake and eat it too. Your article makes clear how unlikely it is that such a scenario will ever really materialize. I think I know how you feel, though I am now returning to China to participate in an educational endeavor never before granted, namely, to establish an American satellite campus which will benefit from relative autonomy in matters curricular and otherwise. I will be far from Beijing--a mixed blessing for I grew dearly fond of much of what it once offered. Environmental degradation, as I'm sure you realize, takes on a whole new and sordid meaning when one's memories of place are bulldozed. I wish you and your family a most expeditious and comforting readjustment to life in the West.
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Marellus
August 19, 2012 at 00:43
A great read. Thank you.
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Mike
August 19, 2012 at 02:08
Its rather pathetic it took you so long to figure this out. You must have drank tons of Kool aid at SOAS.
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jacob
August 19, 2012 at 04:37
Great Article Mark. Your writing clearly and accurately expresses how I feel about China.
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pado
August 19, 2012 at 09:15
i never think we chinese can do some changes to our leadership.
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Clifford
August 19, 2012 at 11:26
Whether you're Chinese or outsider will be irrelevant in the future. As an Indonesian Chinese, I've learned to maintain a global identity. Having lived in America, Hong Kong and born in Indonesia, people always make incorrect guesses of my country of origin. Your experience in China is a good example of inability to adapt to the local situation. Something I've seen many times over in Hong Kong among the expat community. I think you put too much importance on yourself and your family, considering that 1.3 billion people live and work in China. If you didn't have an exit strategy, you would probably succeed eventually. It's all about commitment. But it's your life. Thousands of foreigners will gladly take over your place in China.
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Laowai
August 19, 2012 at 11:46
You're leaving China because you're not being successful and your business is not sustainable in one way or another. Feel free to blame your inability to build guanxi with the local government or to attract local customers instead of noisy Westerners with little understanding of this culture. Nobody ever forced you to stay in China and yours just sound like a childish rant because somebody stole your ball. I am a foreigner like you, and my wife is Chinese like yours. I will never be Chinese, I'll never apply for a Chinese passport, and I'll never blame an entire country/system if my ambition doesn't get me where I want. I came to China with big dreams just like yours BUT... I don't make a big fuss about not being able to ever become Chinese (hey! Chinese identity has ALWAYS been based on ethnicity - didn't they teach this elementary notion at SOAS?). A final word - you're showing a very Chinese trait in going back home and leaving the country. It's called pragmatism: your business is going down the hill and you're going to a greener place where you can probably earn better. It's an end of a chapter in your book mate, don't take it the wrong way and don't blame the people, the culture, and the environment which enabled you to get where you are.
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Keith Piccirillo
August 19, 2012 at 12:10
What a well written piece. My wife went to China on business recently and gave me many insights into the differences between the affluent and the drones which are plebians or proles. Economic freedom over political freedom was the choice and China took the former.
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Just a visitor
August 20, 2012 at 03:53
The article is a personal story of someone who clearly loved China, its people and country. However, over the years his expectations and love for the place and people have clashed with the realities of the life there. It happens. Not just in China. What I have not seen anywhere before is the comments here. It makes me wonder what is the point? Then I remember, there is more here underneath all the words. Thank you all for an education never to be repeated
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Christian
August 20, 2012 at 05:11
Mark...really, I can't believe it took you 25 years to understand the way things are. You are either a relentless, relentless optimist; or have been totally blind for years. Welcome out into the "daylight"!
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Lawrence
August 20, 2012 at 05:32
Lots for Mark and his elk to contemplate in this article below... Why I’m leaving China 15 August 2012 210 tweets TOP5K Retweet So you’ve finally decided to break up with China. You’ll probably want to write a blog post or newspaper article about it, then. Too busy packing? Here’s our handy delete-as-necessary CDS guide to posing that crucial ‘Dear Zhang’ piece! Relax – I’ll be back soon! Not even sure why I’m writing this, in fact “Hey. How you doing? Great, great. Look… we need to talk. About us. When we first met, it was great. You were a developing nation, on the cusp of greatness, full of opportunity, innocence and frankly batshit behavior. I was a 24-year-old college graduate who couldn’t get a job/ recently redundant 36-year-old staring bleakly into the future/ newly divorced sex-tourist only 52 years young. And now? Now, you’re a bellicose superpower with a victimhood complex and a whole bunch of incipient, growing social problems. And me? I’m a 29-year-old college graduate who still can’t get a job/ China expert/ old guy with arthritis and no pension plan. Hey, hey – don’t cry… come on. Let’s not make a scene. Look, we’ve had some good times you and me, haven’t we? Remember when we spent six weeks in Hunan together, pretending to be the foreign CEO of an investment capital firm? Holy shit, I’ve only just realized that was criminal fraud! Or what about that time you gave me a job as an actor in a prestigious TV series, playing Whitey – despite the fact I couldn’t emote my way out of a fortune cookie? Oh my God! What about when we spent a year teaching in Dongbei – what was it you said? “We have to leave town, now. Your friend has slept with a local gangster’s mistress and now he wants to cut off both your legs”? Man, that shit was fucked-up. Hm, I wonder what did ever happen to Mike? I should really write to that crazy bastard sometime. I guess it was kind of douchey of me not to give him a heads-up before I fled Harbin. Anyway, it’s not all been one-sided. I’ve given a lot to you. I’ve tried, I really have. I’ve read all four of your Novels. I learned how to use chopsticks. I spent two months editing your mom’s crappy kindergarten website. I even wrote that personal statement that got you into Harvard Business School (and you sort of “screwed” me on that deal, or not, if you know what I mean). And there are still so many things I love about you: the bountiful range of cuisines; the hospitality of your people; the southern landscape; the complete lack of qualifications needed to get a teaching job; those courtroom pictures of Gu Kailai in a fat suit. Good times. But now it’s really time to move to Taiwan/ ask my parents if my bedroom is still available/ go back to Europe and set up a China consultancy firm/ call a probate lawyer. Why? I can’t really say for sure what the final straw was. Probably it was a combination of things. Maybe the pollution; the constant food scandals; the oppression of the Tibetan and Uighur minorities; the inexcusable decision to delay Dark Knight Rises in cinemas until August 27. I mean, seriously, what the fuck? I need to see that movie, now. And look, this has nothing to do with the fact that the PSB tried to frame me as a drug dealer/ your father is a high-ranking PLA general who hate Americans/ my visa just ran out. No. It’s just that now happens to be a very fashionable time to be leaving China. This isn’t personal. It’s not you. It’s me. Well, mostly it’s you.” Don’t miss out on self-important foreign voices in China. Follow @chinadailyshow on Twitter
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dailo
August 20, 2012 at 06:19
ofc u white ppl will never become one. get rid of ur imperialistic attitude in ur own countries, so ur next generation might have a chance
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kiki
August 20, 2012 at 11:17
Hey, what a war....and i don't understand WHY against Mark. You know what, guys, I am a foreigner, that used to be maried to a Chinese. I was living in a totally Chinese area, west Beijing, working in a totally Chinese company, being the only foreigner, and i hated it that Chinese were taking me as a Chinese. I spoke fluent Chinese, I sitted with the Chinese grannies in the yard while taking care of my half-Chinese kid, talking about healing with food, and how to pee my baby, etc....i felt almost 50% Chinese back then. AND guess what -- i couldn't stand it. Not at the moment when they wanted me to play their game, that Mike describes very well from a macro-point of view. I've seen the "me" culture in a totally different way. I've seen mother and son playing their game, which is being totally flexible about your own opinion which in most cases you could never see it, changing all the time depending on the situtation, always being fake, always paying money for mistakes, always measuring the weights of human relatinship in some ridiculous way, awlays trying to blame the others, to have a guilty person for something that nobody has a guilt, to use the guilt to buy a mistake of your own, and etc stupid stuff. I am sorry for my poor English, i already don't speak well any language. But after being in China, and living ten years in their society, i feel such a relief being back home in my country. I earn less money that I could earn in China, people are less friendly with me, in fact, Chinese were quite good and accepting me, I cannot find the exotic situations I had in China, but i am MYSELF. I don't need to play all the time and be fake with everyone. I don't see the fakeness between family members anymore. And this is what MARK is talking about, he's talking that CHINESE PEOPLE ARE NOT HAPPY. I also don't believe that there will be a revolution or whatever upheavel. I believe in the Chinese communist party just as I believe in God. I;ve seen them, i have friends Communists. I believe them. I just know how unhappy they are. Althought they are great. Hey, after all, money cannot be use to measure love, happiness and respect. If you are a stranger in another coutnry, you will never be accepted, yes, i think that actually now i am more of a stranger in my own country, than I was in China. But I am truly myself, and i am happy of being alone and a stranger, rather than having all these unhappy people around me.
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ltlee
August 20, 2012 at 11:58
Of course one can never be a Chinese if his selling point is being foreign.
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TSENG Kin-Wah
August 20, 2012 at 16:53
Mark, If you stuck to Metals trading instead of going into publication, you’d probably be a billionaire by now - holding a Chinese passport & screeching communist propaganda (like a few expats here in HKG). Didn’t you know free media is a big no-no in China? You’ve become the enemy within. And if the recent Indian allegation that a few tweets from Pakistan has caused the communal riots & deaths in Assam leading to hysterical exodus, do you blame China for nipping you in the bud & showing you the door - especially noting the rising popularity & success of your “multi-million” dollar magazine? You must have supreme confidence in yourself to imagine the CCP will ever allow a sprouting seed to a possible “Chinese Spring” to germinate. But with such confidence & bravery, you deserve all the good luck to whatever you do next.
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HG
August 20, 2012 at 17:52
"But this article is not personal." cough@bullsh**t@cough Your article is about as objective as Sayyid Qutb's "The America that I Have Seen." Do you think you maybe overestimate how great things were in the 1980s and how bad they are now?
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JJ
August 21, 2012 at 06:13
Thanks for this...I'm Canadian, husband and I have lived in Japan for 10 years and tired of it...just visited Hong Kong for the first time and loved it...good to hear your perspective... There are strange similarities here between Japan and China. Maybe it really is time to go back.
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Dave
August 22, 2012 at 17:31
I'm not quite sure why the author opens with a lamentation on not being able to ever "be Chinese," and then does little to back up that assertion. Sure, he goes on to complain about ineffectual government and bureaucracy, the education system, the courts, propaganda, etc., but these are all things that Chinese people have to deal with every day. Dealing with them IS being Chinese. It actually seems he's more irritated that he isn't receiving deference and special treatment.
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WPlovehoney
August 23, 2012 at 02:19
It's a long article, but I managed to go through. It does sound whiney and bitter due to the fact that MK expressed so much negative feelings about China upon his departure. So why saying it's not personal? What's missing in the article is the big picture: over the course of last 30 years, China has accumulated enough expertise and knowledge and gained enough confidence that its people no longer look up to foreigners as they used to. Why is it that multi-national companies are so strict now when it comes to sending expat to China? Because they know they can hire local people now, so why pay the big bucks. This, in addition to rising living cost especially in big cities and the stagnation of China's economy, makes foreigners' life in China harder than just 5 years ago. And it is under this background that more and more foreigners are leaving China now. MK's nostalgic memory of mid 80's when he first arrived in China to study is telling. On the freedom and human right issues that he seemed to have the most complaints about in modern day China, the 80's was certainly much worse. It seems to me the source of his nostalgia is that he was "rich", and was in a different class from ordinary Chinese, and hence the source of his bitterness now may well be that he is not "upper class" any more. To be fair, there are quite a few valid points in MK's observation of China that I also share. What bothered me was the over-generalization he was making, which truly borders the line of racism and reflects his moral superiorism mentality. It's disappointing to see this from MK and on Prospect.
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Vernette
August 23, 2012 at 10:26
I'm a Malaysian, Chinese decendent. For me, admitting to be a Malaysian still makes me proud (although it's so corrupted nowadays) in many ways, I won't call myself a Chinese. My great grandparents maybe Chinese, probably sold by Chinese to South East Asia as slaves... but I am not Chinese. Here's what a real Chinese (who now resides in Norway) think about being Chinese... Joe Chung, read his book "I don't want to be Chinese Again"... http://joechungvschina.blogspot.hk/
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DJ Arts
August 23, 2012 at 13:15
Mark, I find it very brave of you to write down your feelings and observations, knowing the possible consequences and the unavoidable reality of different minded people to twist and turn every word. Thank you for this. Best of luck to you and your family. D.J. Arts
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Andy the Expat
August 23, 2012 at 14:00
Too many sour grapes painting a bitter picture here, lacking objectivity. Corruption of power is everywhere and not only occurs in China. Sure. Leave China. It is better off without you, but, where will you go? You were extremely naive to think you could become "Chinese" in the first place- seems you just want to have a whinge and feel bored and ignored out in Moganshan. You have put me off going there
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Will Turner
August 23, 2012 at 20:48
That's why I love America. Though our history has terrible ethnic divisions, we've continually marched towards a more perfect union where all are welcome. Our nation is built on the hopes of people from all over the world. I can trace both sides of my family back to before the Revolutionary War, but if you're becoming a citizen today, then you're just as American as I am. Gotta love it!
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Short-sighted
August 24, 2012 at 03:56
the good things is younger generation Chinese are educated with global mind of view, more open-minded. situation will be changing all the way. this is place will getting better. all matters is time. i bet 10\20\30 years later, the writer will have a different view.
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SFBoy
August 24, 2012 at 06:05
Just go to any brand-name Silicon Valley high-tech companies (hp, cisco, google, facebook, etc), you would see tons of Chinese engineers everywhere. Often times the entire engineering team are either Chinese or Indian. Or if you have ever been to academic conferences around the world, the number of Chinese nationals have been increasing very steadily. Yes. The Chinese education system is a test center, but it does produce large quantity of good scientists and engineers, and without them, the Silicon Valley would be very under-staffed. So something good does come out of this education system, no matter how many flaws it has. On the other hand, how does an average American high school fare? Not too good. Otherwise all my friends would not have moved to the school districts where houses cost millions.
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Pan
August 24, 2012 at 08:57
Thank you Mark to give me a different aspect of China. In fact you should enjoy your foreign face in China, which usually help you receive more convenient than ordinary Chinese people, no matter on trading or living. Of course it is another situation when you enter the publishing market, it is impossible for Chinese people as well, and you know the reason. You can easily make friends in China because your foreign looking. In turn, it is harder for Chinese people to do so in foreign country because it is much more diversity and not unique to be black hair and black eyes. Take care.
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why r we over c's
August 24, 2012 at 09:29
MK, a great read and well written. I too have been in China/Hong Kong for 16 plus years 'doing business' and see the transformation of great , kind , hospitable , giving and family led people into money grabbing , do or die what ever it takes people. I am told there is no word in chinese for cheating or to cheat... i would not know , but as time has gone by its come to pass and especially these last 4 to 5 years any ( ok most ) chinese people you do business with think its their god given right to cheat you for either your money or the quality of what they are making/selling. Prison / forced labour....... its bigger now than its ever been and will continue to flourish. Corruption , as above. i could go on .....
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Fred
August 24, 2012 at 18:28
Just 10 days until my long-awaited departure... just hope the lynchings won't start before :P
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OYK
August 24, 2012 at 19:52
I am a Chinese, educated in American top graduate school, and working in China now. Can't believe that I read through all the comments at 3 am local time. Just want to thank all who contributed to this threads with a sincere attitude, no matter on which side.
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Jessie
August 26, 2012 at 21:20
I am Chinese, grew up in Shanghai, left in 1991, went back in 2000 and left again in 2006. During that year, I wrote about why I left, similar reasons as Mark wrote, and got many responses. It seems now after 6 years, emigration again becomes a trend in China. Most of them just want to buy insurance because they are not giving up their career back in China by only sending wife or kids to overseas. However, what Mark wrote, I think, it is not about "you'll never be Chinese", but about "you'll never want to be that kind of Chinese". Experience in China was still precious because not many people could have this kind of self-fulfillment realised in a lifetime. Acutally Mark overcame the biggest challenge in human weakness: do you want to be that kind of Chinese, to be successful and admired by millions?
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Allison Lieber Prout
August 27, 2012 at 18:21
Dear Mark, I studied Chinese in the mid-80s and lived and worked in China in the early 90's so I can totally relate to what you are saying. China is hard and China is frustrating. I realized very early, when I was a student, that I would never be fully accepted as a foreigner. I also had no desire to be "Chinese" . The closest you can get to being accepted is to do what you did, to marry a Chinese. I worked for the start-up of Avon China in Canton in the early 90s. At the time, we could do no wrong, we rode the wave. But, after I left, the government decided to ban direct selling. Boom, time to reassess and change direction. Avon, as any company that is committed to the long-haul, was able to leverage it's branches into retail outlets and ride out the storm. 10 years later, direct selling is back in. Time to change gears again. In the meantime, GM gets let go on charges of corruption...the drama goes on and on. It's a tough environment and the question is, is it worth it? I also got to a point where I said, enough is enough. Now get ready for reverse culture shock which takes a good few years to get over. And, I agree with others that every country, every system has its own problems as well as advantages. Find a place you are comfortable, that has values that you want to impart to your children and instill those values as best you can. Good luck to you on the journey ahead.
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Lucy
August 28, 2012 at 03:06
I am just wondering what if a Chinese guy leaving the US wrote an article "You will never be American" with criticizing the health care, high employment rate, ridiculous politics debates, kids can't do maths in schools... etc... What will he receive? Probably a label of loser. I feel sorry for Mr. Kitto who married a Chinese women, became a father of two half Chinese kids, but still can't wake up from his own imagined Utopia Chinese dream, and start to learn how to cope with the reality as real Chinese will do, not to mention some of them have already foreseen and thought about what to do to make any little change. How can someone ask a foreign country with 1.3 b people to live up to his own favor? I can do nothing about this but laugh.
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dabaicai
August 28, 2012 at 20:33
You can never be a Chinese because you are here just for businese, because you can leave anytime you want. China has so many different kinds of people, there has to be compromises. It won't change as the exact way you want it, it won't change the exact way anybody want it. You were here because you saw opportunity here, you are leaving because you don't see that anymore. And you are hoping to come back when things have changed and there's an opportunity for you again. Yeah, this is totally what a Chinese would do.
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Michael Schwägerl
August 28, 2012 at 21:01
Hello Mister Kitto, first sorry for my bad english, i am from germany. I searched for your email adress but didnt find out, so i am forced to write you in this comment-area. I write for the Epoch Times Germany, and i wanted to ask you, if it is allowed, to translate this article into german and also into chinese and public it in the Epoch Times Germany ( www.epochtimes.de ) in german language and in the Epoch Times worldwide website ( www.epochtimes.com) in chinese language? Please write me back as soon as possible. You can directly write to min.schwaegerl(at)epochtimes.de
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jiefree
August 29, 2012 at 00:04
????????????????
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John
August 29, 2012 at 01:28
Dear Mark, I'm writing to ask for your permission for my re-posting this article on my website www.hereisbeijing.com. Thanks a lot.
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davro
August 29, 2012 at 01:46
Interesting article and interesting feedback. I`ve been living in Beijing for 8 years. For the most part I love it here. Once you get used to the idea that the word "fair" is a regional concept not a universal truth it makes it a lot easier to tolerate the things that seem so strange and backwards to western people from "developed" countries. The most important advice I got from a Chinese friend here soon after I arrived was that "Chinese people only care about making money." Once you understand that a lot of things fall into place. This article could have been written about the experience of any person living in any country that had legitimate reasons for leaving due to their own observations and opinions. It just seems that since everything is about China these days it gets a lot of interest. China is a sovereign country and as such has the right to do things its own way, no? I`d say don`t underestimate the Chinese ability to make it all work out in the end. If you come from a developed country you complain about China, if you come from an underdeveloped country you think China is great. It`s all about perception and attitude. Limit your expectations and you limit your disappointments. I think Henry Kissinger said it best. Something like, “China is not disciplined.” It could be worse.
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Mark Baran
August 29, 2012 at 02:39
Your view is either idealistic or naive, in China something goes wrong i immediately change direction, don't care about government, you write nothing new about China just repeat litany of well known truths...like you did not know about them? please 16 years and you did not see it? MB USA CT/SUZHOU JGSU
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rome
August 29, 2012 at 02:45
great thread
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Ben
August 29, 2012 at 03:35
The author knows a great deal about the situation on the ground in China and economics! But I feel you have too much condescension towards China and Chinese people and I don't think that is a rational emotion. As a Chinese engineer in American on temporary super-limiting work visa I want to remind you that: 1 As a savvy business owner, you are a lot more fortunate than most Chinese people. You can complain about not being able to make money as easily as you want, don't forget most Chinese people hardly have any options in life like you do. You can just pack and go. Most Chinese can't. 2 Chinese government makes it difficult for you to do business. But how difficult is it for Chinese people to stay and find job in the UK or the US? Who is more welcoming of foreigners to stay? I think you have taken your freedom as a westerner for granted. 3. Put things in perspective, there are a lot more places in the world that is simply much worse. India is a good example. Well, after all, I agree with most facts and observations you mentioned in this article. I just wish you show a little more kindness towards the people in China.
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Michael
August 29, 2012 at 04:12
as a native Chinese, I am deeply empathised by your article.
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Mike
August 29, 2012 at 05:18
Mark's take on where China is heading to is an excellent summary of what many of my Chinese friends know and don't want to admit -- the county is stuck with an ill-fated and unsustainable party-centric government with no conceivable/safe exit. I'm a Chinese living in the US and have frequent contact with visiting Chinese academics and businessmen visiting the states. Most of these visitors are in the "system" - beneficiaries of the recent boom, if you know what I mean. After spending a few months out side of China and becoming more used to non-prescribed thinking, often over casual chats over different aspects of lives in China, they have repeatedly surprised me by quickly admitting how hopeless things are in China and, more importantly, what unthinkable outcomes any real changes could bring. When I press for a more optimistic view, the typical response was hoping for "a miraculous, but incremental and peaceful, change". Remember the "harmonious society" propaganda in the recent years? Keep in mind that these are the intellectuals whose peers, back a century ago, had given the birth of modern China. When these intellectuals, never mind those in the lower tiers of the social pyramid, are so dependent on and attached to the "system", the chance of a progressive system-wide change from the within seems pretty slim to me. (For brevity's sake, please spare me from establishing the above observation as a reality.) For those of you that hold an optimistic view of a progressive China, I would be most delighted to hear your reasoning of a sustainable China from where it is today. (Convincing reasoning please. I've heard too many wishful thoughts, and they have started making my heart hurt.)
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midnight
August 29, 2012 at 06:53
I happened to know Mark, and almost worked for his publishing business 10 years ago. "that's Shanghai" the magazine is called. it was the most popular city magazine at time, but we all know that Mark was wire-walking since publishing is highly controlled file in China. he could be extremely successful or lose everything over a night. it's gambling. I personally has a lot respect to Mark, for his bravery, for his entrepreneurship. China has offered a lot to Mark though. even one day he must to leave where he start from nothing to be well-famed man; he found his love and has 2 beautiful kids. "you hate as much as you love", it's China.
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Mark Newham
August 29, 2012 at 10:01
Is Prospect censoring comments on this article? All posts older than 17 Aug deleted, mine amongst them. In case anyone's interested, here it is again: The only thing that surprises me about this article is that it took MK so long to reach the same conclusion I reached after just two years. Mind you, I did have the short circuit advantage of being a system insider. Doing time with the Xinhua News Agency - China's prime state propagandist - does have the effect of compressing the learning experience rather. Like MK, I left KNOWING that the foreigner is only tolerated at best in China. Just a few weeks as a system insider was enough to convince me that us 'foreign experts' are only of use to the system for long as our brains continue producing useful information. Once picked clean, that brain becomes surplus to Chinese requirements - unless, of course, it can be harnessed to foment the best-of-all-possible-worlds message, the only one the PRC seems interested in conveying to the rest of the world. I got out before the full effect of the insidious re-education process kicked in with but one thing on my mind - warning the rest of the world of China's true intentions. The result was 'Limp Pigs', an insider, evidence-based attempt to explode the great changing-China myth (see www.marknewham.com). Sounds like MK has something similar in mind.
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Doudou
August 29, 2012 at 14:21
hi Mark, how are u? last time I went camping with Kong and LaoZhang, there was a strong wind, remember? u've met me there. hope to have a chance to see u again.
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Clever to discover
August 29, 2012 at 16:53
David-in-China smelled like a paid party writer who posts on the internet.... Not a laowai...
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K
August 29, 2012 at 19:10
I read the entire article again and learned something. Thanks Mark. I realized positive people know the sun is up there even on a cloudy day; negative people see shadows everywhere, though they do live in the same world. There is no need to argue with the other and try to correct them. Just be clear which side you want to be, stay with the same people, keep your faith, and do right things. Sad, it's so pathetic to have a beautiful wife who can play music to the kids but with a deep down victim mentality.
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Edmund
August 29, 2012 at 22:11
Wow, a lot of this summarizes precisely what my parents and I believe. I am a second generation Chinese American. My parents moved from China to America following the Tiananmen Square incident, but that wasn't their only reason- they were disillusioned by exactly the same things you mention in your article. As I read this, I recognized that they would have agreed massively with your points - especially regarding the materialism rampant in Chinese society, the educational system's pitfalls (it seems that China, America, neither's perfect in that aspect by far...), as well as the government's inadequacies... I am happy to be living in America where at least the political situation isn't as bleak, but this just goes to show that nowhere's perfect.
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Ted
August 29, 2012 at 22:59
Good article. Moganshan is not that well known even to most of Chinese, except those living near Shanghai and Hangzhou. My late mother and two sisters were spending their summer there when the Sino-Japanese war broke in 1937. They retreated to Chongking directly, giving up everything at home back in Nanking. I lived in China from 2008 to mid-summer 2011. I drove to Moganshan two years ago by myself. I admire your courage to live a village life there. Your observation is accurate and analyses profound, unlike those of many of Westerners easily fooled by the propaganda. Good job and good luck!
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Joe
August 30, 2012 at 01:46
>be a foreigner >decide to publish magazines >in CHINA Did this not seem like a bad idea to you from the start?
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Alain
August 30, 2012 at 06:40
I also left China 1 month ago after spending too much time here, took me also too long to realize that China is just an illusion. The more i stayed the worse the country become. I thought economical growth and opening to western world would bring people to become wiser, smarter but i cant see anything coming.... the opposite rather happening. China advertise itself as a super and developed power. However in the daily life i cant see it. Crossing a street in Shanghai can get you killed. The noise level everywhere make it a nightmare to just enjoy a simple walk. The pollution level is not reasonable. And the worse of it Chinese people never show empathy toward others, how many time i have been buying groceries and asking to the shop owner how is she doing doing and only got in reply a stupid look on their face... My point is China is developing in a world were solution exist to make the environment and daily life better, however nothing of this is being used / applied by the government. China is a soul less country, money is the core value here and an objective in life. Once you understand this you leave China.
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Tobias W.
August 30, 2012 at 11:06
It's amazing how many comments this article provoked. Only a fraction of comments are authentic though, the majority are "five cent party" comments. Let's give the five cent party something more to chew on: I think the reason the Chinese society is focussed on personal gain only is a result of the political system. There is no trust in China. Nobody trusts each other in China. The population does not trust the government and the government does not trust the population. Since nobody knows how long economic growth and limited economic liberties are ongoing, everybody is trying to make as much personal profit while this situation lasts. There is no long term thinking in China, because people do not trust any long term promises - neither by the government nor by private entities. It's the same within the Communist party. Cadres are abusing their power for personal gain for as long as they hold official positions, well knowing that this does not last forever, only looking at what's good for them personally within their domain of power. I can second what Alain has stated too: the Chinese in general have little empathy for others. It's quite common to see traffic accidents in China, with accident victims lying on the ground wounded or dead and people just walk on, involved cars just driving on. Some of these incidents make it into the Chinese social web, to Weibo and other places and are heavily discussed and criticized until these discussions are "harmonized" and Weibo mysteriously is forced to disable comments on these posts or make them disappear entirely. And then there is this inherent culture of imitation rather than innovation, also resulting from the Chinese "education" system. Some bitter, hateful comments from conservative US folks on this page already pointed out that without western involvement in China, China wouldn't be where it is today. That's true. Without western companies to copy from, Chinese companies wouldn't be successful. Chinese society is rotten at its core and while there are many Chinese who recognize this, the government and its lackeys are doing what they can to prevent change and public awareness. All this fuss about China being the next superpower is utter bullshit in my opinion. While China has considerable political weight through economic power, it's morally corrupted inside and cannot lead by example. Looking at the Syria crisis and before that at Libya where China also backed the old regime due to considerable investments into the country, China cannot act as a world leader. There is not one area, where China is legitimized to act as a recognized and accepted world leader except where China bails out broken countries with money. In all other areas that matter in today's world, like climate change, human rights and others, China is failing internally already. And looking across China's immediate borders, China cannot even control it's North Korean minions, passing on the initiative to deal with this mess to the United States and others. OK, this should give our five cent party members some more ammunition to earn some cash from bullshit posts...
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Bob
August 30, 2012 at 11:41
I hope you didn't move your family to the UK, where we're effectively on the brink of ethnic cleansing due to media-fuelled fear of anything foreign. Strange to think, my Chinese wife and I are thinking of moving BACK to China, as this country is increasing hostile to us and our children.
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Andy the Expat
August 30, 2012 at 12:25
Well debate is a good thing, no doubt. It seems the good Doctor has too much time on his hands and occasionally resorts to petty sarcasm when all else fails. Of course, people who work at Universities insist on being seen to be knowledgeable; ignorance is an affront after all and we others recognize gratefully that they are all here to save us. The reality is, kind Doctor, many people in the worlds education system have never left school and are sometimes found to have a very narrow minded view of reality. I suggest the good Doctor has invested a lot of time and a great deal of emotive comment supporting the failed premise of this article and wonder at the connection. It is not common to see someone get up on a high horse and then continue to throw himself off from a great height. I thank you, it has been very entertaining thus far. I am sure you won’t disappoint me and there is more to come. I will now allow myself a somewhat verbose retort on behalf of all respondents who disagree with this article (self appointed of course). Have no doubt this article is specifically written to tap in to a prominent and controversial niche, to instill a ‘China fear’, in reality, it is verbose and un-convincing, poorly contrived and in great need of an edit for it to become in any way objective; but, being objective is not the point. The name of the article is merely a hook and judging by the response (mine included) a very good one, but is it sharp enough to land the fish? No, not if one views this article impartially, the line snaps on the first jump. If you already have a polluted view of the articles premise, you will smell and taste the content. You will blame the broken line on the manufacturer and not how you played the fish. The article, as does all communication, lives inside you and touches key triggers that evoke your thoughts and emotions and all these feelings seek constant justification. It’s a natural part of being bigoted and stubborn. Psychology? Yes. Intelligent people realize this. We can all see that the article has attracted and created a deal of hysteria, serving its purpose and ultimately satisfying the author. It amuses me that many Chinese respondents on this thread jump on the same train as the author, don’t they understand that if they accept the premise of the article they should not be afforded the right to comment? These tracks in this article don’t belong to the Chinese. Clearly the author needs to write another article for these respondents entitled “You will never be a Foreigner”, the Chinese could comment freely on this thread without being hypocritical, after all, if we support this premise, how can they ever expect to understand and become a foreigner while they are Chinese? You can’t be a little bit pregnant can you? The article therefore, in its very nature, is divisive; it does have racist undertones, it does fall back on bigotry to justify its views. How can one logically morph in to a different culture? Impossible ofcourse. When anyone reads anything they need to maintain a self aware perspective. Don’t let bad writers trap you or whisper sweet nothings to you. I do not know why the original article has attracted such interest from “Foreigners”, it is not about a unique experience in the world of business, some comments on the thread espouse the benefits of other systems and cultures, but in reality, nothing is perfect: anywhere, and this is obvious to anyone who cares to think. Go ahead and leave, why make so much noise? Imagine if everyone who left any country in the world made so much noise and write articles like this! The good Doctor would not have time to command any of his profound tutorials on cultural assimilation! No, the truth of the matter is, the motivation in producing these types of articles (and it is a ‘production’) is that the author seeks self justification, maybe he is negotiating a boo deal – maybe he has even finished it, who knows? But mark my words there is a reason, none of what has been expressed within in it. Perhaps I k\miss the mark entirely and the key driver is that it stems and feeds a deep bitterness (and there are many bitter expatriates living in China). Bitter for many, mostly personal reasons: people who deserted families and other responsibilities overseas; people seeking to escape divorce or other traumas; but in time, many of these ghosts still haunt them, maybe even more so in places like Moganshan. We all know bitter people seek to blame life’s shortcomings on other people. Denial of responsibility is a key fallibility in humankind, when we want self justification, when we use our views of righteousness to evaluate our circumstances, the weaker person always blames others. Like us all, the writer is on a journey, he has chosen for whatever reason to make that journey and his opinions very public (which in years to come he may regret – print is very powerful and has a way of haunting one), but in his article, he appears to accept no responsibility for anything he has ever done and is therefore a victim of his own fallibility. I can only guess at why he wants to grind this axe, perhaps he himself doesn’t really know why, and really needed to vent so he could get some perspective. I hope he finds it without creating too much fall out, but he has no sympathy forthcoming from myself, nor do those respondents who wish to fuel this sad tale further in the public agenda. It is not worthy but will be tasked by people who want something defamatory and sensationalist. It will serve further purpose yet, that’s what propaganda does. Be careful. The reality is, not to be seen in the above lengthy article of self justification, as in all things, the simplest approach to analysis is always best. Look at the attitude behind the article, the word choice, the tones of victimization, the cultural naivety and there you will have your answer. I too can speak Chinese and being bilingual has taught me that many things do not cross the translation barrier. The author is meant to be bilingual but doesn’t seem to be aware that in between different languages, some timed direct translation is impossible. It is obvious that also extends to the cultural gap, perhaps a better name for the article would be “Lost in Translation” – a pity it has already been used. Those of us who have been raised in fundamentally Christian societies occasionally are known to express a great deal of piety when laying judgment on others. To allow a last piece of sarcasm to flirt its way in to my verbose response, I can see the good Doctor and the author playing the violin loudly together for many years to come (not sure where) but, take comfort, they will surely be in harmony and playing in a minor key: for all the others, enjoy China. The place has a lot to offer for those who can see it. Peace be with you
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Andy the Expat
August 30, 2012 at 13:01
John. The author told a story about typical business practices that occur on a daily basis in different scales anywhere in the world. He then pushed it in to the Chinese culture as if all other cultures are 100% devoid of such practices and then he got up on his soap box of self pity and proclaimed himself a victim. This is the essence of his article in two sentences. Are you on drugs or do you believe everything you read on the internet and CNN? Surely you recognize anything of value in life has risks? Why complain?
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Andy the Expat
August 30, 2012 at 13:53
John, Corruption is everywhere. It may take different forms in different cultures, it may be more obvious or become more obvious to people from alternate cultures at different times anywhere, it has a unique yet allusive quality, thats why the law and its makers are unable to entirely able to stamp it out, despite their best endeavours. l have never lived and worked in Europe but am sure that the same drivers for cirruption are there, perhaps more subtle and hidden, but people with power and privaledge will always exploit knowledge, extort relationships for their own benefit. This unfortunately is human nature - but we think we are so much more civilised than developing nations. I like Ghandi's view on Westerrn Civilisation, he said "It's a good idea". Its time we got off our high horse and looked at our own backyards if we are to make comparisions. Cheers
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Greg
August 30, 2012 at 13:56
Most of the comments in the article are fine, but I'm not sure what the objection is about not being allowed to become Chinese. You're a white guy from a Western country, right? What kind of dreamy idealism would give you the idea you can just 'become Chinese'? Perhaps it's part of the romanticism of youth. Somehow we set out filled with the dream of becoming accepted in exotic places -- why, simply because they're there. But how realistic is this? I appreciate that many Western countries have an intellectual culture geared to accepting outsiders who want to integrate into their society, but can a non-white really expect to turn up in Britain, say, and just become 'British' as the next guy? Anyway, I've seen this all before. The first complaint about Japan is 'once a gaijin always a gaijin; you can never become Japanese'. I might even have become upset at one time, but it's rather silly and romantic to expect to walk in and expect to become a 'native'. (Anyway, compared to Japan, China is considerably more accepting of foreigners.) Now I've come to accept that Beijing doesn't belong to me -- I'm just a long-term sojourner passing through. I'm accepted by people for what I am, a foreign guy who speaks Chinese, nothing more, nothing less. That's all you should expect.
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L&G
August 30, 2012 at 16:52
It's ridiculous to want or expect to become Chinese. What is wrong with seeking fulfilment simply as a resident of a country, possibly with a family if you really want to go the extra mile with integration? I have seen far too many typical jaded expat views here. If you don't like China, and I mean the whole deal then "Zai Jian!". I find it funny that many of the people who seem to want to bend China to meet their ideals are the types that are horrified by the talk of hardline Muslims demanding Sharia law in the UK. Is there really any difference in these 2 scenarios?
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QK
August 30, 2012 at 19:03
Mark, overall your comments are spot on. I lived in China for 5 years and did everything from graduating from TCM college to learning martial arts to doing business consulting (all in fluent Chinese). But in the end, foreigners are only temporarily tolerated as long as you spend money, agree to the superiority of the Chinese way and don't question anything. Now for my own rant - being married to a Chinese, like being a foreigner, means nothing and in some cases is detrimental. You are still and always will be a second class citizen. It’s not that all Chinese willingly try to make you feel inferior, it’s just the inability of most Chinese to accept different things and think outside the box. I will provide some general examples – while raising children I have to listen to lectures on things like how dumb I am to allow my children to go barefoot (the floor and mother earth poison the body through coldness). I should know this because I studied Chinese medicine but obviously foreigners are too weak minded to comprehend the deep Chinese wisdom. But, I point out, walking barefoot on grass in summer is wonderful. No matter, I am always wrong. Every day, every meal has to be Chinese food which I usually end up preparing myself because my wife is lazy. But when I dare make a casserole or spaghetti I get indirectly sneered at for eating garbage and wasting money on junk food. These 2 points are only the tip of the iceberg because the illustrate examples of ways that Chinese are unable to adapt or change. Yes, its universal to have differences in cultures but in China, it’s gotta be 100% the Chinese way (corrupt and backwards) otherwise the highway.
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Alain
August 31, 2012 at 05:25
The comments over there are very interesting. For my opinion China is an illusion at best... Someone who live in China long time will understood it. I don't think China is a country made for expatriates or shall i say smart expatriates. Each smart guy i knew here left China very quickly, the others staying were the one complaining they couldn't find job back in their country. I also left myself, not saying that i am smart but i couldn't stand the lack of intellectual dynamism among the expats and Chinese... I wasn't expecting Chinese to share with me long debate about politics, life or economy but i found out that most of local are absolutely unable even to give you their opinion about anything making living here the most boring experience of my life which push me to leave China. Also i tried to look around, finding some nice think tank or discussion group there isn't any... I said ok there must be some nice concerts, or talk show in Shanghai ... there isn't ! I tried to look on the art scene what could happened : nothing much What is left in Shanghai is a developed bar scene full of alcoholic and it results in probably one of the largest so called "developed" stupid city in the world. On the business side, it's also an illusion. Nothing innovative is happening in China. There is no IP protection which make it absolutely impossible to safely innovate. You cannot sue someone copying your business or patent ... Well to conclude what i don't accept is China proclaiming themselves as a super power ! It's a lie. China is an illusion. If i have to say something to anyone planning to move to China, please save your precious time and energy. There is much much more to do back in Europe / Usa or others country than in China. Don't do the same mistake as i did to move here.
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Jake
August 31, 2012 at 06:23
I'm a foreigner who married a Chinese woman and has been living/working in Mainland China for around 11 years. This article hits on many true issues now facing China. I think there is some bitterness to the author of this article since his business has been seized by the government, but I don't blame him. China is at an interesting time right now, and I don't think anybody for sure knows the outcome. It certainly has changed since when I first arrived here in 1999. The "Old Days' of expats living in China are over. Things aren't as cheap, nor as fun as they use to be. Perhaps we're just getting older and we have outgrown China. China is for the young and adventurous, as well as people who have thick skin and have an open mind. China doesn't need anymore older, narrow minded, Brits or American's living here. I guess, when I think of the Chinese, I feel upset for the Chinese who work so hard while others cheat and take advantage of the advantages they have been born into. There are millions of hard working and ethical Chinese, but they get overshadowed by the rich, "upper-class" privledged other millions who we all see. I hope the good people in this country will one day have their country back. God Bless the Chinese......
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Daniel
August 31, 2012 at 17:04
I am an American living in South China. I say I am American with pride, my family was one of the original settlers of the "frontier," I can claim Sons of the American Revolution on two bloodlines. I left USA because, like another American, I found my self living a life of quiet desperation. I came to China with three goals, to be a part of an emerging financial revolution ( i was a sidelines bit player in the internet revolution and the dot com revolution, but never an actual player), to escape my life of quiet desperation, and, hopefully, to find love. Well, here I am almost nine years later. In my mind I am satisfied with all my goals and their subsequent achievement. I have love, and a growing family, I have lost desperation and now seek an avenue away from boredom (lol), and while I am still a bit player in a larger revolution I earn a very nice living on the fringe. I recognize many of the authors complaints, just as I acknowledge many of his detractors points made. One does not come to a country where censorship is commonplace and enter into a business that dances with that issue. To do so is to invite the inevitable. As for being or becoming Chinese, he is spot on, it cannot happen. Frankly, who wants it? I just want to raise my family, run my little English school. keep my students happy and by the way side, my chinese wife. I acknowledge my "alien" status has opened doors for my relative success here in China, I would never do this well in my home country. I do detest the constant "China bashing" that goes on between ex-pats here, if you hate it, leave it. Honestly, life here can be hard. Food variety, familiar culture, actual real life nature (I am a native Californian), simple straight-forward honesty, these things sometimes fail to appear in day to day life. And yes, I worry about my three children's educational prospects within the Chinese education system, but I know that I, as a parent, can counter-act any egregious mis-information posited by my children's teachers. I suspect I too will leave China, when the time is right. But it will be for reasons larger than dissatisfaction with the local treatment or even education. It is entirely possible my reason for leaving will be my own desire to return to my own familiar culture, when aging make me less agile in adapting to life here, in China.
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Andy the Expat
September 1, 2012 at 00:43
QK. You have no pity from me, nor are you worthy of it despite your victim appeal. if you are gullible enough to marry a Shanghai Princess then so be it, you made your bed so lie in it. Are you so arrogant to believe that being fluent in Chinese gives you a first person undersatnding of Chinese culture? Regardless of language ability, it doesnt sound like you have any real ability to communicate at all. To you, an alternate opinion seems to be a personal attack. Perhaps if you put away your pious views you may find that your wife puts away hers
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Foreigner
September 1, 2012 at 03:48
After having lived in Chengdu for 8 years, My wife (Chinese) and I are leaving China very soon. After reading Marks artical, I find myself agreeing with most of it. Ive never wanted to be Chinese, but being accepted into the community would be nice. For example; Going down to the local shop to buy drinks and cigerettes without being stared and pointed at; going for a walk with my wife and not getting loud muttered comments that my wife is a slut for "dating" a foreigner (even though we have been married and have rings on fingers). Other things such as receiving my pay on the date written in my contract (I work for a top 10 university, so one would assume regular, on-time pay would be possible) and being able to have the semester start/finish dates (and holiday dates) in advance and not one day before we are due for our first class. I also dislike the way every time I go to a shop im always given a price thats 70% more than normal and I have to bargin back to a normal price. I know I havent been here for as long as many foreigners and yes I live in a city/area that is maybe considered poorer and less "civilised", but over the last two years my friends and I have noticed things have changed. When I first came here in 2005, most people on the street would wave hello, would try to chat with you and practise English. However now (maybe partly due to my internal feelings i admit..) the looks, the comments and the general tone when most chinese see me on the street is not pleasant. My wife and I have come to the conclusion that due to all the new laws (foreiginers not being able to buy houses, chinese people married to foreigners not being able to buy houses, 70 year ownership of houses) and other things such as expensive schooling, bias/unagreeable educational system, expensive healthcare, we will try a new life in the UK. Please understand, i am not saying the UK is better than china, but right now my wife and I feel its the best place for us to start and family and raise our children. As with most comments, im sure mine will upset and anger some people, but please remember that at the end of the day, these are my comments/feelings/opinions and its ok for you to disagree, but not to be rude. As it should be with all comments and Marks artical.
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Geetjwan
September 1, 2012 at 08:32
I am a Chinese, I was born in Culture Revolution, grew up in Deng's Reform and Opening, experienced Tiananmen "incident" in university. As some of you said, I am the first person of understanding China. I AM Chinese culture. Study me! no, I don't understand China, none can fully understand China, especially Chinese. I learned a LOT from many of your comments. It took West 300 years to reach current peace, freedom and prosperity, You have experienced wars, pollution, slavery, looting, copyright piracy :D. Give my dear China some time to sort out so many problems caused by such a big change in 30 years and problems accumulated in 3000 years. I hope the problems won't lead to a upheaval in China.
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SVH
September 1, 2012 at 11:45
Very interesting skimming through the comments. My personal opinion is that the article is well written and spot on. I suspect the majority of naysayers have limited to zero exposure to (I should say IN) China. It takes a LOT of time to figure things out over here. A 1 year jaunt teaching English is by no means going to make some the experts they believe to be, and if they really believe it, they are only fooling themselves being blinded by the "honeymoon" effect.
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Thomas
September 1, 2012 at 16:12
Urgh. Poorly written article. Sweeping and non-factually based generalizations about the Chinese people are ill informed and only serve to discredit your argument. And, "the world does not want to be led by China in the 21st century", what does this mean? Are you referring to GDP, population, or beer consumption or are you just afraid of Chinese people? Also, I think your article is fundamentally flawed in its argument, you made the mistake of confusing the terms good and better. You see, for China to be better (less poverty, increased rule of law, etc.) it does need to be good. Most of your examples are static, and fail to exemplify changes. Also, you title is wrong. A. As a foreigner in China you can become Chinese. You can get a Chinese passport. B. China is not just a region, but also an ethnicity. Only Michael Jackson has been able to accomplish this so far. But even he wasn't able to become Chinese. What's with all the quotations? Who are you quoting? Do you know what a quotation means? You cant use them to make a point, you actually have to be quoting someone. Also, there are spelling and grammatical mistakes. Try googling, proper-noun before you write anything else. It is distracting and looks bad. What is this business about foreigners not being allowed to go to Moganshan on the weekend? As you should be aware, they are allowed.
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ShanghaiScouse
September 1, 2012 at 16:50
I am a contemporary of Mark's in many ways, with 4 kids here in Shanghai. I even have a China green card (only benefit is I don't need to fill out arrival and departure cards). I also face a similar dilemma. I think he agonizes too much. Basically there comes a point in time when you want your kids to experience something of their own country. Its as simple as that, you can justify it any way you want, the air stinks, the food is bad, whatever. Or you can just accept that it was always going to end one day. But believe me, when you go back to the UK, you will realise pretty soon that the grass is always greener...we tried 10 years ago but after being burgled twice in a month came back. To get paid far more than I could get in the UK. And not to be discrimated against because I didn't go to a private school. But the point isn't that one is better than the other. The point is that your kids need the experience of both, good and bad. They are of both, and need to know both. No need to get hung up about it. That was the deal you made when you first set eyes on your wife-to-be.
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pirx
September 2, 2012 at 00:25
We share a similar timeline in China, also beginning in 1986, then permanent residence 1988-1993 and coming back to live and work here a second time later. I am not as eloquent as you are. You managed to find the right words for how I feel about China, its people and its development. This is the most profound, essential reading about reality in China I have seen in a long, long time. Thank you for that. I wish you well.
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Cynical Observer
September 2, 2012 at 04:29
There's a similar thread (albeit shorter) at chinalawblog and I'll just repeat here: it isn't just foreigners who feel disappointed and angry or foreigners who expected to be privileged and pampered who are leaving because their white skin doesn't yield instant perfection in their work and life. Many Chinese are also leaving for similar reasons people cite here: pollution, corruption, appalling food safety, political repression and an increasingly amoral, avaricious culture. Every foreigner I know, knows many Chinese people who have left or are planning an exit or hoping to find one. Many more would leave if they could, but they don't have the means (financial, relatives overseas, mobile means of earning a living, language skills) so they stay, unwillingly. The Chinese people who are leaving, or sending their families and money overseas, are those with skills, money, education etc. Many are government officials. Surely these people are those who have the most to gain by sticking it out, sucking it up etc. So why are they leaving? Sure, there are lots of Westerners, mostly young, kinda bumming around China, picking up work because of unemployment at home. But you don't see a widespread trend of educated, skilled people, affluent people, or officials from the West "fleeing" to China with the goal of moving permanently. So enough with this "you white people came here expecting to live like the days of imperialism" stuff we see here in some comments. Living in the very center of the capital of the world's second-largest economy in the 21st century (fastest supercomputer! largest foreign reserves! tallest building! biggest user/consumer/importer/market for this that or the other!) why do I need to carry home every glass of water I drink? Why can't I see clearly across my housing compound on far too many heavily polluted nights? Why can't I trust anything I buy to eat or drink? I am leaving China myself after five years, and it feels like much has changed socially even in that time. I did not come to get rich (and I didn't, though I saved some money). Yes, I did get paid more than many Chinese people ... but many Chinese people have de facto jobs for life in the massive state sector. I have one-year contracts, one-year visas, and no retirement benefits from my Chinese jobs. And when I go back to the US, there will be many foreign citizens on various visas (in IT, banking, etc.) who are earning more than I can because they have skills I don't ... So? And why does it feel like in every transaction in China, the purpose isn't even really the transaction ... contract, investment, purchase or whatever ... that seems to have become almost secondary to what kind of scam the other party is trying to pull. Scamming each other seems to have become the purpose of almost everything. I hear that from Chinese friends and colleagues too: "There is no law" "It's like the Warring States period" "There is no trust among Chinese people" are actual comments by my Chinese colleagues, friends and neighbor. As to "he entrusted registered ownership of his company to his then cashier who then conspired with his then sales director to transfer all the company’s assets to another company behind his back ..." wouldn't that be, you know, embezzlement?
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Tobias W.
September 4, 2012 at 18:03
One more thought for the 5 cent party members here: Another fact why China's current system is rotten and retarded. Just consider top Communist Party thug Ling Jihua's son who caused a fatal traffic accident with his Ferrari and how that event is being hidden from the media and the general public because it displays how corrupt and disconnected the Communist Party elite is from general society. Try searching in Weibo for "Ferrari" and "accident" or "Ling Jihua", you can see they censored the results. The Communist Party is a pathetic and corrupt criminal organization. How China can actually claim to be a world leader with such thugs governing the country is beyond me.
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Chav
September 5, 2012 at 01:22
@ Dave - I disagree wholeheartedly. When the unravelling does come it will likely be some previously overlooked factor. It always is. The kleptocracy in China has been running things long enough to know how to put out the major fires. And aren't the "kind of things" your'e talking about the important ones anyways? Doesn't a clean judicial system, freedom of expression, food safety and an accountable leadership trump some abstract GDP figures? Do you thing the average duck-parts salesman or used-oil scooper or petty functionary at Changsha Hospital gives a toss about the "Economy"?
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wplovehoney
September 5, 2012 at 02:36
"rusty musket" seems a perfect description for the 19-year old Perry Link book you hold so dear to your heart. Don't you think after 19 years, the "Chinese intellectuals" in Perry's book may have a different thought or even change their mind? Yes, the Chinese intellectuals and students worshiped western culture and ideas (remember the Statue of Liberty replica in Tiananmen Square?), and looked up on westerner intellectuals in China, which makes westerners like Mark Kitto and you feel good, and is just another source of current nostalgia about the “good old” 80’s of China on your mind. Chinese intellectuals are much more sophisticated now; China has many problems and challenges, but there is no quick fix by just importing western ideas and systems. This must have disappointed many westerners looking for quick changes. Another point on “becoming Chinese”. I agree with people who pointed out that Mark Kitto did not want to become a true Chinese at all; he wanted to be a privileged Chinese. Besides, when did China become an immigrant country like US or Canada? Is it fair to expect China to open its door to accept immigration like US or Canada? Remember most of UK’s current immigrants are results of its long colonization history. How many non-immigrant countries really accept foreigners and allow them to become true citizens? Norway? I agree with the idea in principle, but how realistic is it? More importantly, for a country that has just opened its door to the world since 80’s, is this even a reasonable expectation? Should it be a priority for China? Don’t China have enough problems already like Mark Kitto pointed out?
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Chav
September 5, 2012 at 04:46
@ Tony P Hmm. That's a pretty fair sketch of the type of postings we've seen, although I'm surprised by the venom and general level of idiocy exhibited by some. Particularly the mean-spirited ad hominem attacks that stem from those whose China experience is armchair-based. I thought the author was measured and reasonable in his argument and avoided doomsdary scenarios and unwarranted pessimism. However, I note that a great number of posters don't seem to have read the article at all, instead bringing their personal agendas and biases to bear on a subject they know little about. Again, not to throw a wet blanket on things but unless you are fairly fluent in Mandarin and have lived in China continuously for more than a couple of years you're basically farting out an opinion that nobody educated gives a toss about. I agree that reasoned counter-arguments to China pessimism are always interesting but I've yet to see any of those outlined here.
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Chav
September 5, 2012 at 06:38
@ Dave I almost feel like you are arguing out of both sides of your mouth here. It’s a bad idea to disrupt the status quo, but the status quo, in all facets of life, is rotten to the core? Some catch, that 22. You can read what you want into my comments. I see no contradiction here. China is what it is. To pretend otherwise is to be purposefully obtuse. That doesn't mean one has to LIKE the situation or be supportive of it. It's quite clear that the West has an interest in stability and prosperity in the region. Human decency necessitates that we wish the Chinese people continued fortune and peace. But wishing doesn't make it so and only a child can't see that. Perhaps the original analogy will make it clearer for you. I own a house in Chicago. Disruptions in the real estate market in the U.S. be it sub-prime or whatever are damaging to my financial well-being. Does this mean that I should stick my fingers in my ears and go "nah nah nah nah... all is well, all is well" while making no moves to protect my assets in an overheated market? I obviously don't want a meltdown in the r/e market but I need to exercise good judgement. The problem is that anyone who discusses China rationally and with good judgment is sceamed at by pop-eyed morons who have never been there and can't read a word of Chinese.
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Chav
September 5, 2012 at 06:46
Case in point. The author has written a reasonable opinion piece which discusses China's looming problems with what I feel is a fair degree of tact. He could have been a lot harsher and still been on the mark. People value the opinion of China hands like him because he's educated, spent serious time in China, lived and worked there, started a family and built two successful careers in very different fields. If you are going to trash the opinions of this sort of commentator, just who are you going to believe when it comes to China issues? The China Daily? The Global Times? If this is where you're at then there is no real hope for you. Better start learning those 10,000 characters so that you can follow the sychophantic waitress molesters at PKU.
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stevenYANG
September 5, 2012 at 11:49
I see why you are kicked out. YOU KNOW TOO MUCH!!!!
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Benjamin Chung
September 5, 2012 at 13:32
Dear Sir: I am pleasantly surprised but happy that you will never be Chinese. None of us are. Ever since I was a child, I was taught that I am Chinese and should be proud of it. Taiwan's sinification is about to be completed, most people speak fluent mandrin and regard themselves secretly as a proper "Chinese." The island even adopted the moniker "Chinese Taipei" in the foreign relations. But we will never be Chinese, just as you are. There is a strong suspicion of foreigners as well as Overseas Chinese, not to mention that most of my Islanders at one time were Japanese citizens. It took quite a few years, I tried as hard as I could to speak mandrin, without accents, and to act just like them. But there is always a difference between the'proper Chinese' and us the native Islanders. At the end, I came to realize that after 400 years of history on the Island of Taiwan, has made us Taiwanese, a different identity than the real Chinese from China. There is nothing wrong to claim your own identity, and being British is an honour, I would say. Why not celebrate that cultural identity, treasure that, and pass it onto your own children? China is not a country your children should grow up in, nor would you subject them to the inhumane society that it is, with abuses to human rights and the poorest of their population. Modern slavery goes on behind doors and factory workers are exploited as the Communist Manifesto described years ago. They must have forgotten that, and revisit the same age old practice to exploit farmers and workers in modern China. No, I am not Chinese, nor would I ever want to be. I am free, proud of my cultural heritage, as I told my children that they are free and should continue to be.
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John
September 5, 2012 at 14:25
If only the local Chinese could have the same level of analysis and criticism, China would be a nice place to live.... The only things apart from family that makes life dynamic and interesting is discussion, sharing opinion and debating... Without this there is your brain is not challenged, idea are important... I wish China would change but i don't think it will ever, ever.
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Andy
September 5, 2012 at 14:58
It's funny how some people think they are balanced and fair when they only detail the negatives on an issue (you know who you are). It's also great how they indirectly mock, ridicule or dismiss a group of people like I did above. "You know what, I'm so informed that everyone else who hasn't lived in China for a few years, and can also recite every Tang poem, have absolutely no value to me...". I'm that good.
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Chav
September 5, 2012 at 15:48
"I never said that I would ONLY listen to Chinese people. I never said that ONLY Chinese are allowed to comment on or criticize aspects of China. Jump the gun, much? Makes the rest of your post rather irrelevant as a response to my post. I’ll read and replay to the rest of your post later tonight when I feel like it… and treat it as a new post." *** Yawn *** Reply or don't reply. Nobody could care less. Frankly, your command of written English is weak and most of what you post is gibberish. When legible your opinions are predictably dull and in line with the rest of the China apologists. I"ve been reading your replies for years in the guise of the Wu Mao Dang or the "Just off the boat" foreigner teaching English. Get back to us when China has kicked you in the teeth a few times.
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Dave
September 5, 2012 at 17:07
A silly old man was travelling in a foreign land, when he came upon a giant herd of wild buffalo. He noticed that they were following their leaders in the wrong direction, into the dusty desert, away from the clean water and skies. He followed them for a time, questioning why they followed, he even even tried to befriend some of them. They tolerated his presence, but they just kept plodding onward and onward into the wasteland. Eventually, the silly old man got angry, and shouted at the buffalo. "Why can't you see your bulls lead you the wrong way?!" His shouting spooked some of the buffalo, leading to a huge stampede. Many of the buffalo herd died that day, and with them, the silly old man.
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Jeremy
September 6, 2012 at 03:15
I know little about China and am not sure I know much more having read the above. However, I will miss the monthly report from Moganshan
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Chav
September 6, 2012 at 07:44
Well Chicken In A Basket !!! Andy is so much of a child that he's resorted to replying to his own posts so that like a toddler he can have the last word. Your post pretty much says it all. No argument, no thoughts, no ideas to express. An entire dribbling of postings down to.... "I don't like your attitude and I don't like people who say bad things about China." Thanks for coming out and contributing. Nothing personal Andy. I don't know you and I really couldn't care less, but you sound like an ESL student who lost his soother somewhere. But hey - let's set this aside and see if we can't get at the main issue. I don't want to be accused of being the dreaded grammar bully, but I'm going to insist that if you want to debate then you need to at least read your comments before posting them to ensure they can be read. What exactly about Mark's suppositions do you object to? What is he wrong about? Can you provide ANY reasoned argument to rebutt what he is saying? And before you start crying again - Finger pointing at other countries will not be entertained. This isn't a kindergarten.
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Pirx
September 6, 2012 at 13:01
What Mark wrote is correct, thats why there are so many allergic reactions here. Noone fully understands China, not even Chinese themselves.
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LongTermForeigner
September 7, 2012 at 01:24
Why has this comment section turned into a slagging contest? Why dont you just grow up? You know who you are. You are all entitled to say what you want, however you are not entitled to be rude to each other. As for me, I think Mark is right, and after 19 years of living here, having a family, being cheated by work and wife, loosing my kids due to corrupt courts, I am leaving too.
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Terry
September 7, 2012 at 03:08
After all those years in China is it everything you has to say? You as many others that came to China long time ago got the golden times, got rich and now spit on the dish that you ate.
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Decamp
September 7, 2012 at 04:39
Dr Rick Sjoquist = Mark Kitto?.....either that or he is his therapist, otherwise how can he profess to know so much of the 'internal' Mark. Anyways.....as is usually with this world of 'comments' the internet threw up, it ends in petty personal squabbles among those commenting! Grow up. Mark lived his life, had his expereinces , and these are his conclusions. Not definitive. Just his. I don't agree with all of them, but share views on many. It is frustrating to live here for many years and see the changes from the 'good old days' , i'e. the best years for anecdotal musings that present you as an 'old china hand', but in reality were times of national chaos and confusion regards interacting with the West. There are various publications by these 'old china hands', so read away and get up to speed. Mark does present a view of bitterness at times, and rightly so from his experiences, but for every 'Kitto' there is an opposite view. I've had a great 10 years here, successful business (that took patience and pain and more money that planned, but we stuck it out and it's all worked out well....same as any other country to be honest), played the guanxi card, which goes by the term 'old boys network in UK, so again, just the same really, faced corruption ( same as in the West), lived in a country famed for its abuse of Human Rights, but which has nothing on the likes of Africa, America, UK, etc....currently and historically, so no big difference there, and made lots of very good friends : sincere, straight forward, intelligent, considerate, and very funny. ...NOT the same as back home. And that's the difference for me. As a foreigner I have been well recieved because I have adapted to the culture as best I can, shown respect, contributed to the local economy, helped develop understanding of different cultures, and made the daily effort to be part of the local community. In return I have been shown respect, been rewarded by the local community, and given the trust of many. I don't see the same exchange happening in western countries so easily. Not by a long shot. Lots of ex-pats are loud mouthed bitching whining boozed up sex pests who aren't welcome in their own country and so flee to what they see as the easier option. They are a stain on our culture. Yet, they are tolerated with uncommonly good grace by the chinese people. Reverse that with UK and they would be dealt with by the 'mob' and quickly shown the door. MADE in CHINA......my current life was made in china, and I'm thankful for that, but I worked my ass off to do it! Not handed to me on a plate because I was foreign. But without my upbringing in the West none of this would have been possible. It has been a mixture of both that has enabled me to develop inot the person I am now, and for that I am grateful. Both cultures have much to offer. One is not better than the other overall. Many great things to learn from China to benefit western minds, and vice versa. It's not a competition except in the politicians' minds. As the 'people' we make of it what we can , as best as we can, as peacefully as we can. That's our remit. One man has written his feelings on his , and I must say, very interesting life in China, so just take it for what it is and stop attacking it for what you see it as. You don't like China? LEAVE......GO BACK FROM WHENCE YOU CAME. You don't like USA? LEAVE...try somewhere else....USA built by immigrants, UK history of emmigrants, what's the story about China, then? Honestly, some of you need to get over yourself.
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lifan
September 7, 2012 at 10:17
Politicians are just the same, they are abhorred in China, but not better in America. Diplomacy is a war field, for the Americans, China become their enemy only because it will be a threat, communism ideology is just an excuse. In China, politicians "work hard" for corruption and maintain their power so that they can corrupt more in the future. In the western, politicians make unreasonable promises to win a election. So what I see is that people cannot follow the way that politicians lead us to. Mind wash can be find in every corner of the world, information are selected for normal people, the truths in Iraq cannot be find in the mainstream media, even those like "CNN" and "ABC", but they do really have time for the Tibet issues and humors on Chinese weibo. What they do to Wikileaks is disgusting, but still those politicians distract people with Ai Weiwei and Wang Xiaobo.
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lifan
September 7, 2012 at 10:32
Some Americans are arrogant and ignorant, the Chinese people in the movies is still like in the 1960's, some Americans still believes that people starving in China is happening as common story. Yes the Chinese are struggling for political freedom, but it is not because we are living worse than in 1949. It is because people are now above the needs for food and security, according to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. The middle class are growing bigger, and people are more educated. Fairly speaking, these progress are the efforts of the CCP, but it will also lead to the decadence of the party's power in this country.
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SteveLaudig
September 7, 2012 at 10:38
Clearly a thought provoking piece. The only thought it provoked in me is the futility of wanting on's ethnic/national identity to be a source of meaning and trying to be something/someone that you are not and looking to other people to approve that you are what you wanted to be. What do I care what other people think? If I want to be a club member, I'll try the Masons or perhaps Club Med. Isn't one of the lessons of modernity that we each can be a country of one? Besides, the US "American" doesn't really have a "ese" or an 'an' in the same sense that one is Chinese or German having with a widely shared culture/language/ethnicity/religion. All the people in the US have in common [seemingly] is a legal status [US national]; a tax code and maybe being a fan of a particular pro sports team. And why would you want to become an 'ese' or an 'an'? Me? I like being me and whether "they" like 'me' because I am "like them". Treat me as you would be treated and we'll get along fine. Polyannish I suppose.
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Carl D
September 7, 2012 at 12:10
Interesting debate. I liked Mark's article. I am a westerner with 40 years association with China - firstly as one of the few foreign students allowed in and more latterly as a businessman here. A fluent chinese speaker, Chinese wife etc. Boxes ticked. The problem with any debate such as this is that it unavoidably becomes one of "us" and "them", racism and all this other BS. A very simple question for the many Mark critics out there: Please explain why over 50% of Chinese now wish to leave? This is widely reported. Despite the growth in opportunities here, the doldrums in the West, they are leaving. And those are the ones who can. If the article were written by one of them, would you be so vitreolic in your attacks? How would you criticize them in such circumstances. Leaving aside the tedious racism card, what would you have to say? Their comments, like Mark's, are invalid? I am not a good writer. But am very confused. Please explain
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phg
September 7, 2012 at 15:49
I have a similar background as the authour of this article. I have lived and worked in China for over 10 years but decided in 2011 that it was time to leave. During the past few years (about since 2009) i have noticed a outrage and rising nationalism among the chinese people. Pollution and health hazards i could live with earlier since other positive factors where outweigthing them, such as the positive sentiments that all was possible if you worked hard. I don't see this feeling among the chinese these days. Sure, you could blame it on the overall depression alsohitting the chinese economy, but as i see it the mental state of the chinese generally is very poor and there i have to agree with Mark that their only focus on moneymaking. Now, that has never been my single goal in life and i think that the wolrd would suffer greatly if China ever would become the ruler. Sadly, i think that it is very hard if not impossible to have an impact on the chinese mind as a foreigner especially if you work from within China. I have come to the conclusion that the rest of the world has to be more rigid and strict with its dealings with the chinese.
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Davidoo6
September 7, 2012 at 23:15
Why the fook you all trying to figure out China? She is not your girlfriend, nor your wife. Its a country with 1.3 billions people. I repeat 1.3 billions people. Even Freud could not figure out a few of his own people in his life time. And you are trying to figure out the whole culture, the system and the people in a couple of years??? If you still want to live there, follow the customs, respect it (bad or good) and if you can't deal with it, find the next best one. I heard Aleppo city is nice this time of the year.
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Blues
September 8, 2012 at 00:35
Mark (and others planning to repatriate to the UK) Do your spouses already have British passports or residency, or will you have to meet all the requirements to apply for them to come to the UK? http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/partners-families/citizens-settled/spouse-cp/can-you-apply/financial/ I would be interested to hear your 'reentry' story and how you find living in the UK, especially with children at school. It has taken me much longer than I expected to adjust (17 years living abroad, only one of those years in China).
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DJ
September 8, 2012 at 03:38
Edited Hey, Mark I have been in China 10 years. And what counts to me is quite different than you. I came to China because of 911. I know that foreigners did not attack America that day. It was orchestrated by Israel who controls the US Banks, The Media, and The US Military Complex. The reason I love China, is because it is the original people who have their own Government. Communism or Democracy in my opinion is not the real objective. I have found more freedoms in China, than in the US. And China is much safer to live. Chinese can not own guns, and I really think that works. Never again do I want to see another person shot down and killed in front of me, like I witnessed at Weber State University in the USA. It sounds you are tired. Actually the same thing can happen to you in the USA as well. You speak or write about the Government, they can make life difficult for you as well. The other great reason I love China is because of the food. It is the best in the world. And people put to much emphasis on guangxi. That is total BS. There are so many people, you can make friends with, that Guangxi is not a real issue. There are many opportunities in China to do things. And with the idea you are from the UK; you could do trade of UK goods to China, and just be happy. Don’t think having a million is happiness. It isn’t. I don’t have millions, in fact some nights nothing to eat. But I follow a different star, than most. I want to know the different people in the world. I do not try to be them, because then you deny your being. Why do you want to deny your being. Chinese people love foreigners. And if you can help them make China better, then they welcome you. Always remember we are guests in the world. Even in your own country. You can never think you own land. Only God owns Land. He created it. He created you. You can only be a steward of it. So lighten up. China is great. They have always held things together, and I am sure someday you will see that they too believe in the Spirit of God. God Bless and Good Luck
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John Ash
September 8, 2012 at 04:12
Hello, I kind of like Kitto article, but i think Kito also mentionned an important point about China. China is maybe an interesting country but will probably never a nice country to live in. You have to admit that China is noisy, most of people are not elegant and classy, and i think also a very important part of this is the difficulty to communicate at "street level". In most developed western country, latin america and elsewhere when you go buy your groceries you still can start a discussion, chit chat... somehow after few years in China i had the feeling that it's not in Chinese culture to exchange with shops owner or people in the street, there is very few unexpected encounter among Chinese which make it very flat, boring... my two cents
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Aliquid Novi
September 10, 2012 at 04:28
are you kidding me?! i'm reading all these ad hominem attacks on the original post and am just dumbfounded at how people can gloss over the shit going down on the mainland today. here's what i hear: "sure, there's no rule of law; yes, tainted foods can kill and deform children while inspectors get paid off; sure, trains can kill hundreds so engineers can literally cut corners. absolutely, no-one wants to help a two-year-old run down by a truck in the middle of a highway for fear of being held responsible; yeah, an expat can get his business 'taken away' unlawfully. twice [from what i can glean]. but it's an expat whinging about all these things so that makes it less legitimate. in fact, all these tragedies are perfectly necessary so we can overcome the tribulations set for us by our western foes." seriously?? when are you chinese and your western apologists going to grow a pair and be accountable for what's happening to your own country? this is the 21stC. the brits are no longer trying to push drugs on you. you own america. african leaders are falling over each other to be neocolonised by you. and you're still greatly offended when expats dare to judge you by the same standards by which japan, america and our other world hegemons are judged (i.e. rule of law, critical thinking in education, etc). china, if you want to play with the big boys, you have to learn how to take a punch once in a while. an expat - not just any; one who speaks the language and really tried to make a multi-decade go of it - packing it in is a punch to the face. rather than rationalise it away, you would do well to reflect on the concerns raised. there are many valid ones. this mark guy is not leaving because he no longer enjoys being treated like whitey mcwhitester. he's leaving because (among other reasons) he doesn't know when his next business will be unlawfully shut down. i'd say that enjoying rule-of-law is a fairly critical requisite for succeeding in any country, making long-term plans, building a family, etc. i don't blame him for leaving. i think he gave it more than most would. in fact, his greatest fault here, i would say, is his naivite; for thinking he could ever be accepted for anything more than an expat. i learned this after just one month in china; that i had not immigrated here but was just "passing through" and remain here at the pleasure of the government. this is in great contrast to my experience immigrating to canada. i'm an african, and when i immigrated to canada, i was "welcomed home" as soon as i passed through immigration. the same is true for canadian immigrants from china. sure, i've experienced racism in canada (just like anywhere else in the world), but the difference between china and canada is that, in govt policy and the general culture, you are accepted, and, unlike the united states, you're not expected to compromise who you were or where you came from. in china, you are just an expat. and if you try to contribute new ideas to your new 'home', you are dismissed as, at best, an imperialist, and at worst, a racist. if i were mark, i would view the comments on this post as the final confirmation that i was never welcome here.
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El Spa
September 10, 2012 at 15:34
You know why you cannot be Chinese? Because you're not Chinese. You may prefer to stay in the country when things goes well with you, otherwise, you'll come back home. Other Chinese people, however badly treated, have nowhere to go but stay with all that China has. You don't really wish to become one of them, to bond yourself with this land, whatever happens, so how can you be Chinese?
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Tobias W.
September 10, 2012 at 21:21
DJ, you must be the dumbest 5 cent party member yet to reply to this post or simply the dumbest non-Chinese to participate here. First, you state: "I know that foreigners did not attack America that day. It was orchestrated by Israel who controls the US Banks, The Media, and The US Military Complex." Just as a side note, not trying to make my actual point: this is utter bullshit. Whatever you're smoking, you should stop. Back to the point, if Israel is behind 911, then how wouldn't that be foreigners attacking America? Yeah, right. It seems like you just picket a load of bullshit and American clichés to make up this post. For example the gun issue in the States - granted, is real to a certain extend - but going as far to claim that China is a safer country because people cannot own guns in general is simply laughable. Let me tell you: the Chinese do not need to own guns to kill you, they own CARS! And they don't know how to drive. Every day, more than 300 people get killed in Chinese traffic. And consider this: currently only 10 out of 1000 Chinese own a car as compared to 450 out of 1000 Americans. Let's assume more Chinese own cars in the next years (if the economy stops slowing down that is) which will lead to even more traffic accidents, more deaths and even more pollution. I have been in China every year for a couple of weeks for the last couple of years. I have also been in the States at least twice a year for a week at a time for the last couple of years. In China, I saw a fatal traffic accident almost daily (also the nasty ones, with the brains of a victim splattered all over the street in the harsh sunlight) whereas in the States, I haven't been subjected to death in any way ever. I'd settle down in the States for safety any day rather than in China. And the safety goes beyond just traffic safety. Food is not safe in China. Doing business is not safe in China. Expressing your political views and opinion is not safe in China. I could go on but Mark did a much better job at pointing all this out already.
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Lala
September 14, 2012 at 02:53
The East has it's dark and good sides. The West has it's dark and good sides. We'll never know which is better. But it feels like you've taken sides here. Go to the West for a different experience. I think it starts opening your eyes that there is no perfect world out there and everything has it's good, if you choose to live in it.
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Tom in Shanghai
September 15, 2012 at 06:57
Mark must have been blinded by all those shiny buildings. End of the day, China is the 3rd world - and he was expecting equality? fair play? opportunity? honesty? assimilation? He could have skipped the long narrative with just 3 words - I was naive.
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Seppo
September 15, 2012 at 22:18
Interesting to read here how people cultured in the religious, imperial, military, monetary Anglo/American hegemony view the development of China. On the other side: Many times I have heard a parent on the street in China whisper to their child "look an American" pointing at me. When I tell them I'm neither American nor British, they are clearly disappointed. So I assume that as fast as they are able, China will emulate the attitudes and practices of that dominant "powerful" culture they admire so much. Live long and prosper...
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Sifan
September 16, 2012 at 08:42
Mark I am a Chinese studies graduate of Leeds and SOAS and I totally sympathise and identify with what you have written. People like us who studied Chinese, Chinese culture and history and came to China years ago when we were young and impressionable developed feelings for this country which are deeper than many of the expats who arrived later to cash in on the boom. And it is totally dispiriting to realise that you will never be fully accepted, to realise that you will always be a foreign national dependent on the good humour of the authorities for your next visa or your next business licence. It is sad to realise that the so-called "policy of opening up" was a farce and that in some ways China is more closed today than thirty years ago-just look at the Internet! Since China began opening to the world, the world has opened onto a new digital age and China has turned its back, believing that it can develop its own digital world in isolation. Is this a repetition of the historic pattern which led to tragedy in the nineteenth century? Perhaps. It also does seem unfair that China is so stingy in its attitude towards its nationality, given how much more generous many Western countries have been in accepting Chinese immigrants- David. And it's not true that no one asked us to come here; China made a big policy of attracting Western capital and "foreign experts" and even today they are investing billions in promoting Confucius Institutes and Chinese language education. The whole thing smacks of a big con, just like all the fake handbags, fake foods and fake weather reports. This is my plea to be accepted as a citizen of the Celestial Empire: http://www.open.com.hk/content.php?id=420 Yes we were naive, because love is blind and because we come from a more trusting society. I have yet to hear a Chinese use a proverb equivalent to "honesty is the best policy". But as they say it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all! I've got plenty of anecdotes too. Lots of great Chinese friends, what a sense of humour they have. How could you survive in China without a great sense of humour. Not just China but the world was a place of more hope and belief that it was possible to make a better world rather than blind faith "the magic of the market" and endless growth
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xiao wai
September 16, 2012 at 22:06
Mark: I saw what Beijing Scene's chinese "expat" competitors did to Scott Savitt and it wasn't pretty. Get out while you can.
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Taiwandeutscher
September 17, 2012 at 01:12
Yes, Sifan, with a PhD in sinology/ethnology and more than 20 yrs. of living and working experience in the Greater China area, I totally agree with you: disappointed love, lol, and therefore planing retirement sooner rather than later, but not in China!
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The Vpn Reviewer
September 17, 2012 at 04:53
It is really paradoxical to see that development in China is accompanied with a fear of the opening which results in an heavy censorship of the internet and freedom of speech and press.
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Tobias W.
September 17, 2012 at 13:30
Mark made a lot of good points and one of them is the Chinese nationalism which is now taking grotesque and retarded forms: http://www.petapixel.com/2012/09/17/japanese-camera-factories-may-be-at-risk-amidst-chinese-protests/
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Seriously
September 17, 2012 at 15:56
Why is everyone making such a big deal out of this article? This is one man's OPINION. Kitto, he doesn't even have his own website. He is famous for writing this article, so he's literally a nobody. (So this is what they mean by Nobody's Important) Why does anyone even care what he has to say? The only notable mention of him on the internet is this article. He probably wrote his own Wikipedia page too. Kitto, he's famous for "enduring" China. He goes on TV and talks about how he is tolerable so that's why he's still in China. Well, I guess I can understand why he chose to write this article, everyone needs their 15 minutes in the limelight, so why not now?
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Kevin
September 20, 2012 at 05:54
The saddest thing about this article is the author was suckered into spending 16 years of his life in that place. 6 weeks in the early 1980's was enough for me. I could see the darkness, way back then.
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Joe Expat
September 21, 2012 at 01:53
Mark - Thanks for a great read! Best wishes to you and family. Take good care of your wife and treat her well ...as you'll know well that she'll always be treated like a foreigner in the new country.
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Mike
September 21, 2012 at 05:24
Hi Mark. As someone who played a small - but as it turns out quite significant - part in your China story (and a part that I regret ever having been involved in), I wish you well. I left five year's ago after just seven years but don't regret it at all. But then I stayed in Asia, so feel I get the best of the region and avoid the worst. Good luck
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A Chinese living aboard
September 21, 2012 at 17:56
Hi Mark, I do not agree with your title of your article. China is a multi-cultural society. A lot of ethic minorities were once upon a time foreigner. One of female ministers in China is a Mongolian. Mongolian was foreigner long time ago. It seems that you have put a lot of effort to integrate to the Chinese society. Do you want to put more effort? By the way, Chinese never posts family photo with their dog. They post with their father, mother, grandfather and grand mother etc.
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Taiwandeutscher
September 22, 2012 at 13:14
No dogs on the family photo, for sure, and that says it all!
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Lee
September 23, 2012 at 06:36
Good on ya Mark! Your story is a fascinating read. Genuine, rich, on-the-ground first hand experiences are valuable to share. Your interpretations and opinions may not be liked by everyone but they should be heard. Opposing voices can have theirs heard too, as in the case of Marjorie Perry's response. These stories are refreshing authenticity in the midst of so many hackneyed generalizations and party lines. Don't doubt your gut or water down your position to be more PC or avoid flack. However reluctant you may feel to take it, you have been given the mantle of saying things many others want to say but feel they can't. Often extreme positions and over-reactions are caused by a very deep emotional undercurrent of insecurity. This becomes especially dysfunctional when combined with hubris and an utter lack of self-awareness. Many folks from other countries have gone through phases where this mindset prevails. Internationalists from every country abhor it. The more you believe that your country is different, the longer it will take to learn and escape the tyranny of this mindset. Stripping away the noise of political agendas, all countries are on their own journey from their own traditions towards a shared, universal and global modernity. There is a great deal to be learned from others in this process. But a little humility, emotional maturity and objective self-awareness is needed to understand and make use of the insights. Your follow-up note demonstrated some of these qualities. Raise the bar on that front and challenge your critics to meet you on that higher ground. If they're brave enough to do so, a truly constructive dialog can be built.
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A Chinese living aboard
September 23, 2012 at 16:51
Hi Mark, Your article's title suggests China is a closed society and can never absorb any foreigner as Chinese. It is not true and misleading! To integrate into a society, one must agree with the society's fundamental value. Your family photo shows that you may not agree with Chinese family value. For Chinese, father, mother, father-in-law, mother-in-law, grand mom, grad dad.... are much more important than a dog. Dog is only a tool or a servant in Chinese family. We do not consider a dog as a family member. We will ask our dad, mom, ......grad dad etc all together to take a family photo. If you do not agree Chinese family value, how can you be a Chinese? For example, if a new immigrant to USA does not agree the American's value of freedom, how can this person become an American? You complain that the environment in China is tough! I can tell you that during WWII, a young Russian lady married to a young Chinese guy and lived in China. This young Chinese guy was the son of the China president and became the president of the country later when the government moved to Taiwan. This first lady was highly respected in the Chinese society and was regarded as more Chinese than any Chinese. I only remember her Chinese name and even her Russian name. She was highly respected not because she was a first lady but she acted in Chinese culture completely. During the British rule, a young British lady came to Hong Kong. Her Chinese name was Yip. Her contribution to the Chinese society was so great and everyone respected her. Every Chinese in Hong Kong considers Yip as a Chinese. No one bothers to ask for her English name. I can tell you that during WWII, and the time when that British lady came to Hong Kong, the environment is much worst than today's China!
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hongdaozi
September 24, 2012 at 01:28
Taiwanese, hm? Did you ever hear of modernisation, internationalisation, globalisation, 21st cent.? If I look at the stray dog problem in Taiwan and how society treats animals in general, I know why young people on bikes rob old ladies of their gold necklaces.
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sifan
September 24, 2012 at 01:32
This post by " a chinese living abroad" is a good example of the exception which proves the rule and the chinese propensity to fool themselves and cheat others ??????
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sifan
September 24, 2012 at 02:17
” a chinese living abroad” is a good exampe of doublethink common in China. He is intolerant of Mark, claiming Mark is not Chinese enough to qualify for the dubious privelege of PRC citizenship, even after spending decades studying Chinese culture. He suggests that would be immigrants to the US can not get US citizenship without believin in US values such as freedom, "how can this person become an American? " he asks. The US is a pleuristic society which absorbs and accepts people of different cultures. Millions of people have gained US citizensip without fully embracing American values, which include tolerance. ” a chinese living abroad” is an example of such a person.
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Sifan
September 24, 2012 at 03:12
"A Chinese living abroad" confuses PRC citizenship with Han ethnicity. Mark was clear in stating at the start of his article that he does not want to be ethnically Chinese. He just wants the security of the right to stay in China as a PRC citizen. "A Chinese living abroad" says that Mark is not ethnically Han enough to be PRC citizen, because he does not post the right kind of family photos. But this confuses PRC citizenship with Han ethnicity. What about the other cultures presently accomodated within the PRC? According to PRC statistics, there are 10,000 PRC citizens with Russian ethnicity recorded on their PRC ID cards. Should they also be denied PRC citizenship? What about Tibetans and Uighurs? They can all keep their citizenship because their communities were accepted when the Communist Party took power in 1949 and set in stone for perpetuity that China has 56 ethnic groups, no more and no less. (That is why Mark can not get PRC citizenship; even if he did, he could not be issued a PRC ID card because the authorities could not record "English" on his ID card.) "A Chinese living abroad" is a Han chauvinist and his typically confusion of ethnicity, citizenship and nationality is typical of Han chauvinists. He has also confused inclusion of non-Han Chinese into Han communities such as Taiwan and Hong Kong- difficult but not impossible- with PRC citizenship. He has not cited a single case where a non-Han has been awarded PRC citizenship since 1979. We all know of the handfull of "old friends of China" who got it during the revolutionary period of the CPC, but that was a very different era, when the CPC aspired to a kind internationalism. It has now exchanged that internationalism for a kind of narrow nationalism. I am sure there must be isolated cases of non-Hans getting PRC citizenship since 1979. Perhaps the Vietnamese wives brought to rural China by Chinese farmers have been allowed PRC citizenship. Perhaps Tibetans living in Nepal who marry Tibetans living in the PRC have been allowed it. All I know is that I have yet to hear of a case. Also I suspect that "a Chinese living abroad" has lived abroad too long and does not realise that Han culture in the PRC is changing. Like a lot of emigres he holds an outdated, romanticised view of Han culture where everybody sticks to the rules laid down by Confucius 2500 years ago. But even Han culture changes over time. A few decades ago, parents crippled their girls with footbinding. Now lesbians and gays are increasingly accepted by PRC society. Now a generation of single children is increasingly doing what they want to do with their lives. Although it sometimes seems to be a living fossil, Han culture is changing. "A Chinese living overseas" talks about freedom and American values but he does not understand them. Freedom means the freedom to go where you want to on this planet and stay where you want to without interference from stupid dictatorships like the one presently misgoverning the PRC.
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A Chinese living aboard
September 24, 2012 at 04:11
Hi Sifan, Can you tell the difference of a US passport holder and an American? You are completely confused on your logic and argument! Check it out yourself! Check out where Mark lived in China. Is it a Han area? I do not care whether Mark wishes to become PRC citizen or not. If he wishes to be recognized as Chinese, he should act in Chinese way locally. That British lady coming to Hong Kong carried a UK passport for sure but she was recognized as Chinese. Every Chinese in Hong Kong respected her and thought that she was Chinese. Family value and family culture is the corner stone of Chinese (Han) culture. It is so important. I do not think that you understand what you are saying.
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Sifan
September 24, 2012 at 04:40
I think I can. US passport holder specific term, whereas American is more vague. Perhaps you mean can I talk the difference between a WASP or white and US citizen. Do you think that a Han Chinese from the PRC should not be allowed US citizenship in a US city which is majority white? Do you think they should have to prove that they celebrate Christmas? Should they prove that they eat steak with a knife and fork and eat apple pie? Don't be ridiculous. Family is the cornerstone of every culture, but Han culture is changing. You have been away too long. Young people in China don't have brothers or sisters and they don't care about looking after their parents so much. And of course about 10% of them are gay, just like everywhere. You can find people from all over the world in Shanghai. It was built by the French, the British and the Russians as well as the Han Chinese. Then in 1949 the Communists confiscated all the non-Hans property and expelled them. Maybe you are a supporter of the Communist Party of China, and you think that was a good thing?
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Sifan
September 24, 2012 at 04:42
So "Chinese living abroad" if Mark can find a British area of the PRC, he should be allowed PRC citizenship?
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A Chinese living aboard
September 24, 2012 at 05:40
Hi Sifan, You are completely confused with your logic and your argument is confusing. Read my post carefully. I disagree with his title: "You can never be Chinese". I told him some success. In order to integrate into a foreign country and be recognized as one of them, one should absorb its culture.
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Sifan
September 24, 2012 at 10:25
Hey "Chinese living abroad", you don't want to live in the People's Republic of China yourself, but you want to decide who should have the right to live there? You have not given any examples of westerner who have been allowed to become citizens of the PRC. You provided two irrelevant "examples" of people who you claim were respected by Han Chinese communities, one in Taiwan and the other in Hong Kong.
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A Chinese living aboard
September 24, 2012 at 16:21
Hi, Very simple. China is a country of thousand years of civilization. Have your ancestor taught you the proverb: "In Rome, act in the Roman's way"? It is a proverb from the West, not from China. I wish to remind you that Hong Kong is a part of PRC now.
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alex
September 24, 2012 at 16:52
LOL what a joke. NR1. You can hire Chinese director, he can even be owner while you control company via power of Attorney like instrument. Nr2. I dealt with chinese and got plenty of business LOL Some expats whine and whine well pack and go to USA or whatever :D
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My View
September 25, 2012 at 03:51
As I read it, this boils down: China is not "fair" by Western standards, it has one rule for the Chinese and another for everyone else. The counter argument is that it's their country, so put up with it. Following this through to its logical conclusion: in Western countries it must therefore be permissible to adopt a double standard system for foreigners vs locals and similarly the Chinese there should not object if they are disadvantaged by it. If this is indeed the argument people find legitimate, who decides on where to draw the line on how much discrimination is acceptable. The answer to this is that it is an absurd proposition. It is interesting to note more developed countries in Asia who used to actively discriminate against foreigners 10-20 years ago, and as they have developed - adopting more transparency and judicial independence - have progressively flattened out this two-tiered system. Historically exactly the same (or worse) discrimination was also observed in Western societies (look at the UK or US). In summary it seems that China will "improve", but it is a function of time and the recognition and adoption of attributes common to any free and modern society. A final point: to those who would cite the many thousands of years of Chinese culture and history. Chinese history has been re-written numerous times by successive rulers/dynasties, and large parts of what is currently claimed to be its "ancient culture" only formed over the last 100-500 years. There is no doubt it is a proud and noble culture, but do not confuse what is taught by the party in Chinese schools with the true reality of its fascinatingly varied and tempestuous history.
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Sifan
September 25, 2012 at 04:10
When in Rome do as the Romans do? Actually there is a Chinese problem which means the same thing? ruxiangsuisu. Mark integrated into Chinese society as well as he could have done. He studied the language and culture of China for years, he moved to China and made his life there. Of course you can always find fault if that is your intention. No law-abiding resident should be refused nationality of a country after living that the sixteen years. Nobody should be refused nationality of the country after marrying one of that country's nationals. Mark has made a major contribution to China's economy by founding one of China's bestselling expat magazines, not to speak of his contributions to the tourist industry. And he has endured years of breathing China's carcinogenic air heating China's carcinogenic food and being dictated to by China's unelected government. I think he should be given a medal by the Chinese government and a pension for life, in addition to Chinese citizenship. You should treasure him as one of the few Westerners who genuinely liked Chinese culture. China has few friends and many enemies. But maybe you like it that way. As for hiring a Chinese manager and giving him power of attorney, I wouldn't trust such a manager farther than I could throw him. Mark tried trusting the so-called "legal system" of the PRC, it didn't work out too well for him. China was a great civilisation by mediaeval standards but is not civilised by today's.
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Sifan
September 25, 2012 at 04:20
Hong Kong is the only civilised part of China, because it was built by the British and refugees from mainland China. I hope that all you expats who can't stand the mainland anymore will come and join us here.
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Katarina
September 25, 2012 at 04:45
Interesting! Mark's reference to "a monster... that cannot be named". Why? I thought everyone knew the Dragon has to be fed and offerings taken up (human sacrifice, slavery, mortgages, etc). Christians and fellow believers of monotheistic religions should know this. Defenders of the faith can't serve two masters. China has in recent history been a laundry for USA's dirty linen. Satanic majesty sits proudly on his throne and laughs so long as the fires of economic growth are being stoked. Indeed, the Devil wears Prada and uses the iPhone! The UK, the USA, Australia and everyone who trades with China loves communism - just not yet in their back yards, thanks. If you want capitalism and Chinese, go to your local Chinatown.
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Sifan
September 25, 2012 at 05:36
Your argument is hypothetical; Mark never had a choice of choosing Chinese nationality, so how do you know what he would have chosen? Yes the magazines are paid for by advertising, so what? They are widely read and provide useful listings and reviews. Maybe Mark thinks that China doesn't owe him anything, but I do. I don't agree with your opinion on the best attitude to life. It is easy to say things like that, but I doubt you would be so magnanimous if you went through what he's been through.
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A Chinese living aboard
September 25, 2012 at 07:59
Sifan, Why don't you read? At least Mark has a Chinese PR card. ----------------------------------------------------- Question title : how to become a chinese citizen? Question: how to become a chinese citizen? Asked by stephen 2009-05-12 06:10:44 Qualification Foreign nationals who are willing to abide by China’s Constitution and laws and who meet one of the following conditions may be naturalized upon approval of their applications: (1) they are close relatives of Chinese citizens ( e.g. husband and wife, parents and kids, brothers and sisters ); (2) they have resided in China (e.g. have got permanent residence permit in China); or (3) they have other legitimate reasons (e.g. have made outstanding contribution to China, the foster child of Chinese citizen). Procedure Naturalization applications in China shall be processed by the public security bureaus of the municipalities or counties where the applicants reside; Naturalization applications abroad shall be processed by China's embassies or consular offices. The normal documents required are application form and photos. Residence In practice, many foreigners become naturalized through marriage. See the following information: A foreigner who marries a Chinese national and wants to reside in China can apply for family visa from local Entry & Exit Administration Bureau by submitting marriage certificate, current visa and relevant materials. Such visa can be given with one-year term, renewable before expiration. A foreigner who marries a Chinese national wants to permanently reside in China, must abide by Chinese laws, be in good health and without any criminal record, and must meet the following requirements: (1) at least five years of marriage relation; (2) at least five successive years of residence in China and at least nine months of residence in China for each year; and (3) having stable source of support and a dwelling place. A foreigner who wants to reside permanently may apply for the Permanent Resident Card. A foreigner with the Permanent Residence Card can use such card and his/her identity card to enter into or exist China without additional visa requirement. The foreigner may also work in China. To apply for the Permanent Resident Card, the applicant should submit following documents to his/her local Public Security Bureau at municipal level: (1) application form; (2) valid passport; (3) health certificate; (4) none-criminal-record certificate; (5) photos; and (6) other required documents. According to Chinese policy, questions about naturalization could only be raised by the applicant face to face at local Public Security Bureau.
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A Chinese living aboard
September 25, 2012 at 08:21
Sifan, Do you know that a foreigner wishes to be naturalized as Japanese, this person must change his/her family name to be Japanese family name. Translating the foreign family name to Japanese is not acceptable. The family name must be something like Suzuki, Toyoda, Honda ... etc.. That means this person must cut his/her family root and say no to his/her father. Why do I not see an article, :You will never be Japanese: ? I wish you understand that every country has its own path. I just wonder if a new US passport holder promotes dictatorship in US and denies the US value of democracy, I just wonder how this person can be an American. This photo can tell me how well Mark can integrate into the Chinese society. I just wonder whether Mark will be a happy man when he returns to UK or the western world. The problems he faced in China will come to him in the Western world. Do you think that Westerners do not love money? Which country creates the financial crisis in 2008 and now? Why does it happen? He will face the same greedy people. Does the westerner not chase "Big"? US and UK women on average are bigger than Chinese women. Right? They drink bigger Coke, coffee, ... drives oversize SUV, eat Big Mac .... The world is the same everywhere! Mark. There is no heaven!
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Sifan
September 25, 2012 at 10:31
A Chinese living abroad: Democracy is not just a "US value", it is a universal aspiration of all peoples. Even the Communist Party believe in it, as you can see from the constitution of the PRC party-state: Article 34. All citizens of the People's Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of nationality, race, sex, occupation, family background, religious belief, education, property status, or length of residence, except persons deprived of political rights according to law. Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.
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Joshua
September 26, 2012 at 05:39
To be fair, on the topic of fevered nationalism, China fears the West as much as the West fears her. Just look at the U.S. strategic encirclement of China, from Japan, S.Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, Vietnam and India. Compare that to how the U.S. reacted when Russia decided to plant missiles in Cuba. Did you just mentioned "anti-foreign" sentiment?
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Hai Dian
September 26, 2012 at 07:51
In all fairness, China is very nice to people like you, chinese opened their arms to welcome your arrival, helped you settle and learned the way around, etc. Being a Chinese who used to live in U.S for almost 10 years, i can say, China, for foreigners, is so much easier than U.S! with 1.3 billion chinese living in China, i hope 100-200m so called elite chinese immigate to other countries, we 1.1-1.2 billion leftovers will simply just do fine. Western media/press just want to highlight the darksides of the Chinese society, but guess what? ordinary people make or break this country, not the elites. go back to where you come from and settle there, no need to come back to China, let us all have peace in mind.
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Fran
September 26, 2012 at 15:43
Kitto's comparison of the spirit of hope in 1980s China with the cynical money-first mindset since the mid-1990s there resonates with my observations. Knowing that the economic and political system is rigged in favor of the Party's authoritarian control there really dampens one's enthusiasm for long-term residence there. Finally, the whole idea of an "American Century" is grossly overblown, as the world has always been multi-polar and shows no chance of morphing into an empire controlled by one government; the idea of a coming "Chinese Century" is no less fatuous.
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Kastus
September 26, 2012 at 15:56
Chinese. I am with you! The West just fears you because if The West would be on your place as rising Superpower it no doubt conquere the world and dictate its will. Thats what they wait from you. And fear. I know you are better
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Sponge cakes
September 26, 2012 at 21:41
The difference is that Cuba was installing Soviet weapons,or intended to install nuclear weapons there to threaten America. People feel the same when they look at the missile sites on each minaret within the UK. far more dangerous to liberty.
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cheng
September 27, 2012 at 12:15
I think you just make a very right decision ,I think there are something wrong with China's soul and body .and she need to be cured immediately. As a native Chinese,I can feel that and now more and more Chinese are just feeling that.
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Sue Tipping
September 27, 2012 at 19:37
Guess church activities and a nation founded on Biblical principles is out of the question, huh?
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WY
September 28, 2012 at 16:17
as a Chinese woman living in Europe for 3yrs, my personal view is Chinese individuals are generally nicer and easier persons than the western world, because of which, the government can manipulate the people much more easily. Sadly? chinese history/culture is like the barren soil for growing democracy.
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walk pass
September 30, 2012 at 00:14
Mr Kitto, I don't understand how much do you love China? From you essay, you are a foreigner, even you claim you love China. Which country do not have their own problems? who do not think their country is better than others? which school do not teach their the value of their country to the children? how many ppls are not money oriented nowadays? Any responsible country leader will think about feeding their country men, improve their economy, improve their technology, improve their health system and so on. Are those 'problems' more important than political reform? A lot of irresponsible ppls think swapping the leader, their country will become US. That is not going to happen, isn't it? Swapping the leader will only lead to system breakdown. Arguably, China the extreme of capitalism, in the sense that you can buy almost anything. That is why ppls are money oriented. I think Chinese is nice. Chinese sort their problems inside. In contrast to US, they sort their problems by invading middle east for their oil and UN vote. Since US publicly announced US will take care their benefit in far east asia, regional conflicts are all over the newspaper. They also managed to sell weapon system to Japan, God knows how many weapon systems US will sell to south east asia from now on.
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anOverseasChinese
September 30, 2012 at 18:47
As a Chinese who left China around the same time the author went to China, returning to China to visit nowadays, I have EXACTLY the same feeling as Mark. China is a mess! There is no good value standards left. The entire people is chasing money and nothing but money. The country is heavily polluted, from drinking water to the air people and animals breath. I do not know the way out for China, simply adopting a western style democracy will probably push China into chaos and anarchy. The traditional way won't work either, it was the way that made China what it is today. I am pessimistic.
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Taiwanese
October 1, 2012 at 02:24
Pun intended. If you go live in Taiwan and become Taiwanese, the Chinese will automatically think you are Chinese, period.
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L.F.
October 2, 2012 at 03:19
The Chinese are a people huge into face. Collectivism, Buddism, Communism brain-wash, have all contributed to a culture where any open discussion or debate of negative / sensitive issues could be defined as public disgrace. To make the matter worse, the second the debater/questioner turns out to be a foreigner, his/her actual arguments are no longer heard, instead, the common sentiment of nationalistic fever takes over. Even the Chinese critisers from within get badly ignored, censored, bashed or punished, what do you expect as a foreign one? Forget about becoming a Chinese if you were not born one, it's hard enough for me, a native Chinese who left China 8 years ago, to undo it.
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Sifan
October 2, 2012 at 11:40
"We are in a worse situation than are the subjects of a tyrannical governments-for we are liable to all the severity and injustice of arbitrary law, and yet do not enjoy is privilege or protection." The select committee in Canton reporting in 1784 to the East India Company on the situation of British merchants in China.
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Wei
October 4, 2012 at 00:00
donkey carts - when i was in beijing in 1994, i remember in the winter there were lots of them carrying coals for our central heating system. Sometimes farmers also were using them to come to town and sell goods or plants Friendship Store - in the old days I thought that was the most luxury shop in Beijing! It provided another world or capitalism world for me. That's really good one " it came the first inflation china had experienced in 35 years'. I remember end of 80s when the first inflation came, everyone were thinking things were running out, everyone were buying and storing. My mum bought a couple of cotton duvets ??, a few ??, a few ???..... until now I still have a habit of storing stuffs or food. I think I have at least one month supply of pastas which I have stored for a year already.... "the system is designed to make avoidance of responsibility a prerequisite before any major decision is taken."!!!!!!
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A Chinese living aboard
October 4, 2012 at 03:36
Sifan: What kind of protection do you want? The protection to trade opium in China as the East India Company did? Do not live in Hong Kong! Hong Kong is part of China and does not welcome someone like you.
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sifan
October 5, 2012 at 05:53
chinese living abroad : visa and immigration policy in hong kong is independent of the people's republic of china under the Basic law for at least 50 years from 1997. It is much easier for foreigners to get visas in hong kong than in mainland china. When I arrived in hong kong I was given 180 days free of charge at the airport. When I was offered a job my employment visa was issued very quickly. I did not have to have a medical checkup as is required in the mainland. With my employment visa I received a hong kong I d card which allows me free medical care at public hospitals. With my hong kong I d card I can enter and leave hong kong without queuing, I just swipe it and walk through. After 7 years as a resident I will be a permanent resident and then I will have a vote in hong kong elections. I will vote for the candidates who wish to prevent the mainlandisation of hong kong. I will support hong kong people 's wish to maintain tbe independence of hong kong. I'll support hong kong people who wish to limit the numbers of mainland people coming to hong kong.
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A Chinese living aboard
October 6, 2012 at 03:08
Sifan: I grow up in Hong Kong and I am a citizen of Hong Kong. By quoting this in your previous post: "We are in a worse situation than are the subjects of a tyrannical governments-for we are liable to all the severity and injustice of arbitrary law, and yet do not enjoy is privilege or protection.” The select committee in Canton reporting in 1784 to the East India Company on the situation of British merchants in China." it shows that you have no respect to and have no sense of getting along with the locals. You are living in the dream of Westerner imperialism and superiority. Your posts shows that Hong Kong is kind to you. However, it is a shame to have you living in Hong Kong. Why don't you go back to your home country which has a huge national debt? Do not live in Hong Kong and try to make some money from the Chinese!
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Sifan
October 6, 2012 at 04:35
Chinese living abroad, good for you that you are Hong Kong citizen as you put it. You should then respect and admire the legal system which was set up by the British in Hong Kong. Chinese people are hard-working and industrious and succeed as individuals, but they have not been capable yet of creating a system like the Hong Kong system. At the moment Hong Kong is being overrun by mainlanders. When I go out on Sundays I can hardly move, especially on national holidays like 1 October. Everybody in China seems to want to move to Hong Kong, because it is the only relatively free and civilised city in China. The reason why I posted that quote about the East India Company was because it's very interesting that expatriates living in China still face the same problems that they faced over 200 years ago. The Chinese expect model behaviour from foreigners, but they never give them the security of belonging. They expect foreigners to abide by the letter of their laws, even though they themselves believe that those laws don't apply to them. It's not just the expatriates are treated in this way, China's so-called minority peoples are also victims of Han hypocracy. I remember when I was in Hailegou in Tibet, the local Chinese mountain porters told me that Tibetans are not allowed to work there, in there own country, because it would not be safe to let Tibetans carry tourists! Right now, I am reading a book about the invasion and colonisation Nasi Kingdom which is now Guizhou province by the Han Chinese during the Ming Dynasty. Here is a quote from the book, which is called "Amid the Clouds and Mist" and is written by John Herman; "Non-Han acculturation and assimilation into Han civilisation were exceedingly problematic, if not impossible because of the central state's unwillingness to eliminate institutional barriers designed to protect hand dominance of the frontier". As for the East India Company, it is true that they dealt in opium amongst other things - tea, textiles, etc. But I think that the biggest opium profits were made by the Chinese traders and the Chinese officials who allowed the opium trade in exchange for large bribes. Chinese people always like to forget their role in the opium trade, and pretend that they were merely passive victims. They also like to pretend that they have never attacked, conquered or colonised other countries, when in fact they have the longest history of attacking, conquering and colonising of any country. Han Chinese treat their minorities with paternalistic condescension. If Britons were allowed to become citizens of the People's Republic of China, we would be expected to dress up as Morris dancers on public holidays and celebrate the founding of the People's Republic of China and its wonderful ethnic harmony!
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Daniel
October 6, 2012 at 05:45
I am sorry folks but alot of this stuff I am reading in the comments section here is just not true, atleast in my world. As I posted before, I live in China, have done so for nine years now. I own a school, rather my chinese wife is rgistered as owner, I have a family, a house, a nice life and I owe itall to two things, the opportunity granted me here in China, and the fact that I adapt to the place I live. We obey all laws, I have a Chinese drivers license, we do not get involved in politics or religious propagation, we pay taxes as required. I do get annoyed by some of the cultureclashes we experience and traffic drives me buggy, but these things can happen anywhere. Te government leaves us alone, the police enforce the laws and a couple times when I broke the law, I was disciplined. I do see some of the points raised in the story, preferential treatment, uneven income, non existant judicial system, but these things have little bearing on our world. We simply live, love and learn. You have to adjust to any place you live and you have to respect the culture and laws where ever you live. Bsically you do yours and I will do mine and lets just get along shall we.
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A Chinese living aboard
October 6, 2012 at 06:17
Sifan: As a Hong Kong citizen, I would say that it is a shame to have someone like you to live in our wonderful city! How many million people is living in a small island of Hong Kong? You cannot move freely on Sunday and you blame the mainlanders. Do you have any common sense? You forgive the sin that the Britons committed by trading opium by blaming some Chinese officials accepted the bride. In fact, China refused the opium trading, and the Britons opened fire and got Hong Kong. What kind of person are you? It is a shame!!!! You are living in our country and wish Hong Kong to be independent from China. Are you nut? Regarding the treatment of Chinese minorities, you forget to tell everyone how the English extinguish the Scottish languages and the Irish languages. It is a shame to have you in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is too kind to someone like who does not know how to respect the locals. It is what you should do. Buy a British Airway ticket and fly back to your home country which carries a huge national debt. Pay your tax to the British government and helped it to pay off the national debt. Once you leave Hong Kong, your Hong Kong ID card will be not valid anymore as you are not Chinese citizen. You cannot come back anymore. As a Hong Kong citizen, I am telling you that you are NOT welcome to live in our wonderful city.
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Sifan
October 6, 2012 at 07:08
Daniel ; why can't you own a school in your own name? Chinese living abroad, where do you live? Why don't you want to live in Hong Kong anymore?
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Sifan
October 6, 2012 at 07:51
Of course Hong Kong has a right to be independent from China. I believe that is what most people in Hong Kong would choose if they had the choice. Hong Kong is a civilised place, it should not be ruled by a place which is so uncivilised as the PRC, everybody knows that. But Hong Kong people had no choice about the handover of Hong Kong to China. So like you, they voted with their feet and left Hong Kong, because they didn't trust the Communist Party of China to rule China as well as the British. The majority of the Hong Kong people are refugees from China or children of refugees whose parents saw the terrible mess that the Communist Party made ruling China for thirty years, the tens of millions starved to death in unnecessary famines, etc etc. That is why the CPC had to guarantee that they would not change the Hong Kong system for at least fifty years, and would give Hong Kong a very high degree of autonomy. Without the guarantee, everybody would have left Hong Kong, and there would be nothing left except empty office blocks. Hong Kong people still do not trust the China today, and they are becoming more distrustful year after year, according to the opinion polls. A Chinese living abroad, you do not represent Hong Kong and I don't care whether you welcome me to Hong Kong or not, especially since you don't live in Hong Kong anymore. I have lots of Chinese friends who agree with me on these matters, in fact I get my many of my ideas from Chinese people, not from Westerners. One Chinese told me that he was grateful to Britain for opening up China, because without Britain and the Opium War, China would still be enslaved by the Manchus, Chinese would still be governed by eunuchs and Chinese women would still have bound feet. Liu Xiaobo once said that China needed to be colonised by Britain for 300 years to become a civilised country. And I think he was right; Chinese people have proved incapable of creating free and democratic societies without outside help. Taiwan which was colonised by Japan is another example. But of course there are still many many Chinese, like you, who lost have their ability to think rationally and independently after 2000 years of tyranny and 63 years of brainwshing, that is why China is still a mess and why we (both you and I ) don't want to live in China. Forget about Hong Kong and China, you don't live here any more. Try and enjoy your new life abroad and stop concerning yourself with the country which you have left behind and the foreigners who are trying to improve it. We are making a contribution to China by our work here, you are not. Try to understand the universal value of freedom of speech, and try to improve your English, but go and practice somewhere else first, you are not welcome to post on this website any more, at least as far as I'm concerned.
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A Chinese living aboard
October 6, 2012 at 15:07
Sifan: "Taiwan which was colonized by Japan is another example"? It shows that you do not really understand Chinese and Taiwanese. Your promotion of Hong Kong independence shows the British's self interest. Please go back where you belong. We do not welcome you to live there.
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XiaoMo
October 7, 2012 at 03:03
This is a great read. Thank you for writing it. As someone who lived in China for some years some years back and travelled there regularly, speak the language and can function in the culture, I can say this article is completely accurate. No matter how well you 'adapt' no matter how much you learn and how deep you go into Chinese culture and society, if you are not genetically 'Chinese' you will not be accepted, even if you think you are. If you imagine that you are at home in China as a foreigner and you are part of things, you are living in a dream. This dream can easily be dashed, and you may wake up quite suddenly with a shock. The socio-economic precipice that Kitto refers to here is real and when the bubble pops a LOT of foreigns are going to woken up from that dream very quickly. There are so many problems in China, but the capacity and tendency towards nationalism is a very serious one. It has not turned so much towards westerners in a very serious way, but when useful, it will, and I do think any smart western resident should be mentally prepared for this, similar to the poor Chinese owner of a Japanese car that was recently beaten Most people want to get out if they can, but if one was to explain WHY they wanted to get out (as shown in some comments above) the first response would be to attack the foreigner (or even claim a Chinese with that different viewpoint was mentally polluted by the west) and tell them to get out of China and 'stop meddling in China's internal affairs and 5000 years of culture etc etc... then get back to finding a way out of China...
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Anna Young
October 8, 2012 at 07:11
What the author, Mark Kitto, said about China is absolutely unfair to China. Things happen for a reason. With its continuous civil wars and foreign invasions in the past, China has become to mistrust foreigners. Look at the U.S. strategic encirclement. The U.S. gang up with China’s neighbours, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Philippine, Taiwan, India, and lately Myanmar to surround and provoke China. That is the reason why China has anti-foreign sentiment and strict control. Mark, ask your ancestors what they did to China. They polluted a good Chinese civilization with harmful, dangerous drug, opium. You should be thankful to China and Chinese for giving you the opportunities to learn the language, culture, and make your fortune and have a good family in China. Instead of complaining and running away from China back to U.K. as you have the advantage, you should stay behind and patiently help your host country, China where makes you rich, to become a better country. As John F. Kennedy said, “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.” Let not ask what China can do for you, but ask yourself what you can do for China, your half homeland (because your Chinese wife is from China.)
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maniza
October 8, 2012 at 07:46
The first generation of immigrants will attempt to blend in a society, a community ,an area.This in any state that any nation can't do! So you can drite a lot of artical like that! you'll never be Japanese, you'll never be American you'll never be Britian you'll never be Frenchman ………………………………
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sifan
October 8, 2012 at 12:00
Anna Young when considering this excuse for isolationism and xenophobia it is important to remember that china has its own long history of invading and colonizing other countries, perhaps more than any other nation. For example around the time that the europeans began arriving in south china, in the 16th century, Guizhou, Sichuan and Yunnan provinces had not yet been conquered by the Han chinese. The Nasi kingdom in Guizhou was only conquered by a scorched earth campaign in which the Han chinese destroyed everything to bring the Nasi people to their knees. It is similar to things the japanese did in china in the 20th century. Yet most chinese know nothing of this history and many chinese have told me that their country has never invaded any other country.
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XiaoMo
October 8, 2012 at 16:26
If we were going to talk about expansionism and imperialism as some kind of legitimate cause for Chinese people and society internally treating foreigners the way they do, we would first have to examine Chines expansion into Tibet, which was never 'part of China' and Xijiang, which is clearly not even slightly Chinese for starters as well. Since Chinese for the most part are unable to consider intelligently even thinking about considering this topic, we can perhaps scrap the idea of blaming anyone else for expansionism. Just because you ignore facts, reality and recent or long term history because politics tells you to, does not make them disappear. So with those expansionist facts that a whole society is ignoring canceling out the expansionism argument, just drop it unless you want to actually look at the non-ccp-rewritten history. Unfortunately, the CCP loves propaganda and it works. Chinese people have responded to it very well. Unfortunately most are not even able to consider the alternative, and they expect the rest of the world to believe what they believe. Outside of China it is a joke, remember that next time to you try to argue using the party line on a world-wide forum.
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A Chinese living aboard
October 9, 2012 at 00:13
Sifan: Your posts show the interest of a former colonist who cannot forget the interest of its colony. You have no idea whether I am living aboard permanently or temporary, and whether I go back to Hong Kong frequently. It is my personal matter. Is it true that Chinese people have proved incapable of creating free and democratic societies without outside help? Is it true that Taiwan which was colonized by Japan another example to prove your claims. It is a common tactic, which colonists employed to fool the locals of the colony. Twenty years ago, a 40 year old Japanese told me that North East China should be independent. China should be divided into several countries otherwise China was too big to be developed. It demonstrated that a former colonist of the North East China could not forget the benefit of having a colony. After twenty years, can I reply to that Japanese that Japan should be a province of China otherwise Japan can never get out of its economic recession? I am very impressed of your language ability. You can speak and write your mother tongue quite well. I would suggest you to further prove your language ability by learning Taiwanese. Fifty percent of Taiwanese population has never been ruled by Japanese. The whole Taiwanese legal and government systems were based on the Chinese system. It is the system developed by Dr. Sun, the father of the Republic of China. There was zero trace of Japanese legal system. Today’s legal and democratic systems in Taiwan were completely developed by the Chinese or Taiwanese with the Japanese complete absent. It was so long after Taiwan was liberated. Our history textbooks recorded clearly our wars with the West. Thank you for pointing out the Nasi Kingdom. I have learned that when I was a boy. Our history textbooks also recorded how the Mongolian was nationalized as Chinese before the Ming dynasty. Our history textbooks taught our kids how the newly Great nationalized Chinese army (Mongolian) entered Europe and brought the European to the knees. We never hide and forget the facts. You can vote in the Hong Kong legislation council election. The legislation council is one of the highest ruling bodies in Hong Kong. Please ask yourself that which countries in the world allow PR cardholder to vote in the election of one of the highest government council. UK and US do not allow this. You have forgot to tell the world that your voting right was approved by the Chinese government. The right of Hong Kong permanent residents to vote is guaranteed in Article 26 of the Basic Law, where nationality is not even mentioned. The basic law was drafted between Hong Kong and the Chinese government. It shows the openness of Chinese. A EU citizen cannot even vote in any election (except the local city or town election) of the country in which he lives but not a citizen. You can vote for our chief executive which is equivalent to the Prime Minster in the UK in the next election. Will the UK or US government allow this? During the British rule, the British did not allow us to vote for our legislature council. Think about this! You do not need to worry the independence of Hong Kong. As a UK passport holder, you should worry about the independence of Scotland. When I was in Scotland, my Scottish driver told me that he wished to use all the water in the lake of Loch to flood England and kill all the English. It is the independence, which you should work on. If I live in your home as a guest and advise your wife to divorce from you, you will definitely kick me out from your home. By applying the same principle to you, you are not welcome to live in Hong Kong. It is a shame of having you living in our wonderful home. Hong Kong government has too much tax money. Hong Kong government refunds some of the tax money to everyone. We do not need your contribution. You should buy a one way British air ticket and go back to the UK. Please help your home country to pay down the national debt. You are not welcome in Hong Kong.
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Tobias W.
October 9, 2012 at 12:18
Another show case of how unsafe food produced in China is: Caterer Sodexo served frozen strawberries from China to schools in Germany. More than 11.000 students caught a nasty flue because the strawberries from China were infected with a Norovirus. Even if Mark moves away from China, the things he criticized about China can still affect him and his family in other countries. There's a reason even mainland Chinese prefer to buy Chinese products from Taiwan if they have the chance as they trust these more as the local products.
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A Chinese living aboard
October 10, 2012 at 03:22
I have a question. A foreigner in Japan cannot rent any apartment by himself. He must take whatever apartment which his employer can rent for him otherwise he is homeless. There is no freedom of choice. Even after living in Japan for his whole life, unless he is willing to change his family to be something like Honda, Toyota, Suzuki ..... etc, he cannot be nationalized as Japanese. It seems that no westerner has complained, 'You never be Japanese'. Why?
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Me
October 11, 2012 at 08:16
I find it quite surprising how people try to argue here. I also have to say that some guys should feel ashamed for the words they choose. Mark Kitto is describing his own problems and in his case it went this way. Not a single country is perfect, yet most of you start blaming other countries. You should first have a look at yourself before criticizing anyone/ anything else. Neither of us can deny that in every country there are serious problems, but what makes the problems worse is that patriotism and nationalism, apparently, makes people forget we are still humans! Everyone one of us is flesh, has a nose, eyes, ears and most of the rest too! Why don't you idiots stop trying blaming everyone else and start to look at your own country? I cannot remember who wrote it, but yes, the Chinese population is doing better and better...but for how long? When the bubble crushes, people are going to demonstrate because sooner or later they realize what is going on. Freedom of speech and many other naturally given rights are denied publicly and remembering the last years, how come that even Chinese people are demonstrating? And please don't tell me it is because the west started it! Chinese as well as western countries have invaded and looted other countries for centuries and still are doing - China as well as western countries.
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Jack Beauregard
October 12, 2012 at 02:10
Recent Chinese history has been cruel. And you cannot blame only Foreigners for it. Chinese arrogance is dominant today in many industries. It matches the arrogance of their former colonists. No lesson here. Yet, for sure Chinese economic miracle is just momentary, as it was elsewhere. Choices made now will have tremendous consequences. What Western economies are going through is just the heritage of the choices they made or did not make. It is very uncertain that China will do better than Western countries. It is making the same mistakes, if not more mistakes, and its mass does not always play in favor of its development. China has endemic problems that are far from solved. No lesson to give here. Now, man has never had so much impact. Our impact is way more detrimental than it was 40 years ago. Today's mistakes are more impactful mistakes. If China does not make the right choices, man is in trouble. China should show the way of peace and clean development, China should show the way out of this doomed and out of control consumerist and impactful destruction of the world we live in. Chinese has the opportunity to show the world that they are more responsible human beings that Westerners were, more mature human beings, who have understood the lessons of the past. But it does not look that way. This exchange is full of resentment on both sides, and there are reasons for it. Without being able to overcome our negative feelings, and unify for a better tomorrow, we are just heading towards more complications, more harm, more sorrow. Is this about revenge? Or evolution? Or survival. Time will say. One thing is sure: the Western experience is rich, and should be used by the Chinese. They can legitimately set up the rules as this is their moment but there are not too many options to save the world. this can only be achieved TOGETHER.
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A Chinese living aboard
October 13, 2012 at 01:23
Jack: "China should show the way of peace and clean development, China should show the way out of this doomed and out of control consumerist and impactful destruction of the world we live in. Chinese has the opportunity to show the world that they are more responsible human beings that Westerners were, more mature human beings, who have understood the lessons of the past." My reply: "Yes, China has developed the clean energy technology. Now China control most of the solar planel market as well as the wind turbine technology market. You do not need to worry."
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beijing shots
October 13, 2012 at 03:09
whats the problem? most white guys are in China to milk them for money anyway. never heard of a white guy in China who wants to be Chinese. they just want Chinese money
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John Delius
October 14, 2012 at 13:25
With regard to the point about aggression towards Westerners, or strangers in general, when I lived in China I used to walk to my university every day. When crossing the road I often noticed that cars would accelerate to make you give way when if they had continued at the same speed you could have crossed without hurrying; and some cyclists would go out of their way to pass in front of you when it would be shorter for them to pass behind. On a couple of occasions I got my own back: I continued to walk in a straight line and the cyclist ran into the curb.
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A Chinese living aboard
October 15, 2012 at 04:23
Mark Kitto: http://www.ftchinese.com/story/001046950 I think that you can read this article. It answer some of your questions.
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Sifan64
October 17, 2012 at 16:02
Jiangxi, I think that you have answered your own question. If the Opium wars had not happened, China's modernisation would have been much delayed. This would have meant that practices regarded by civilised people as intolerable and unacceptable would have continued for longer. For example, at the time of the Opium wars China was nation in which the ritualised abuse of female children through the cruel and barbaric practice of foot binding was universal. Without the Opium wars, foot binding would probably have continued for many more decades or even centuries, and hundreds of millions more little girls would have been had their feet crippled for the enjoyment of Han sadists. In my opinion, anything which hastened the end of the barbaric sadistic practice of footbinding should be viewed as a positive historical development.
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AX
October 18, 2012 at 04:28
I believe myself fill into the category of trying in our small way to make China a better place. It is truly hard. Even trying to criticize my own parents about their optimism of China's future is difficult enough. Not to mention the rest 1.3 billion.
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China
October 21, 2012 at 05:46
What is that exactly? You mean permanent residency? It’s funny that he is leaving just at the time when foreigners can contribute to a state pension and social security fund.
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ChinaTeacher475
October 21, 2012 at 06:09
"What is that exactly? You mean permanent residency? It’s funny that he is leaving just at the time when foreigners can contribute to a state pension and social security fund." Oh, isn't it great that we can contribute to the state pension fund now? We also chip in for unemployment benefits. A little problem, though. If I'm unemployed I think that means I lose my visa in which case I have to return to my home country. I'm sure the nearest Chinese consulate would get a big kick out of me asking how I can collect on my unemployment. As for the retirement benefits, I have a feeling it's going to be a similar story: I lose my visa, am forced to return to my passport country, and have no means of collecting my contributions. No, I don't trust my own government much either. As a US citizen I also have doubts about the return I'll get on my contributions to Social Security. Still, I doubt "contributing to the state pension fund" is much more than just another foreigner tax.
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Fred
October 22, 2012 at 16:26
I sympathize with the Opium War in invasion argument. Even Mark admits it was cruel. Are Chinese just as cruel? Probably. But its one country invading another and pushing drugs. Sure, officials and mafia id collude and benefit. I read an account that Chinese diplomats could have prevented all of it if they had simply had a similar mind-set. It seems they agreed to negotiate but used this as a means of secretly attacking three or four times! Buying time? But I blame the British,its unforgivable. However, one thing is easy to answer; do Hong Kongers prefer Western system of government to mainland Chinese? I believe they do. One hundred thousand marching against guoxue propaganda classes in schools is a large chunk of Hong Kong. How many hundreds of thousands just resented it silently? July heat with babies marching? Unpleasant conditions - must mean something. Look at stats. Presence of protests over forty thousand or countries of about eight million must surely mean universal disapproval of the populace. Over one hundred thousand? Now that surely indicates categoric disapproval o f Beijing government one party system agitpop in school systems. What more? Hong kongers to,d me in Hong Kong and Thailand they dslike mainland Chinese who they consider ill-mannered, too showily rich and undemocratic. The stewardess said it on the airfligt to us flying from Hong Kong to Bang Kok,then again, more forcefully in a Bangkok hotel - we dont want mainland system,only British! I promise you, Im not lying, even I, an English guy, could really get it. But its the way they feel. And they are a more polite people, who treated me very well when ai was in Hong Kong. Chin's cool too, just low sophistication.
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Fred
October 22, 2012 at 17:13
So people from Hong Kong complaining about the awful English colonization of Hong Kong, and people in China too.. If you want to know how Hong Kong people feel - well, I think they've told you now. In Tianamen Square the students and workers told you, Beijing. They wanted freedom of speech and workers rights. Hong Kong wants a real electoral democracy which it was promised. But that promise has been broken. The birth of democracy came late and derived from ideas such as Rousseau's tacit consent which Mao read avidly. The theory is, man is free but gives away his state of nature freedom to the government so long as that government can protect his freedoms in a constitution. Beijing has not. It has no proper rule of law. Therefore it has no tacit consent of the people. We are all born free but are everywhere in chains. Soon the one card that Beijing has - its economic success - will collapse, and then the people will demand an electoral democracy and freedom of expression just like they did before - but with a greater and unsuffocable vehemence..
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Fred
October 23, 2012 at 19:27
'insuffocable'
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Kastus
October 24, 2012 at 18:03
Fred, you are completely brainwashed. At first you should know "Hongkong real electoral democracy" doesn't allow to vote for all citizens. Whats the Ironyc. In the world there is no ideal goverment's system - dosn't matter democracy is it or something another. And how you can use expressions like "Hong Kong people feel" and "Hong Kong people want"? Who you are? The God? If i meet peaple talk like this I understand they are stupid or brainwashed. Because eveyone is different. Everyone has own feelings and dreams. Actually the most of them are not interested in Polytics. The same in China or USA or Hongkong. So at first you should respect another countries and people who live there. Next you can discuss something.
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Fred
October 24, 2012 at 18:56
If fact, my argument goes: 100,000 marching in a country of 8 million implies majority agree with the marchers, simply because it's a huge number for protestors. Most people don't protest. Most people aren't interested in politics? Just go fuck your mother you patronizing paternalistic little creepoid!
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Kastus77
October 25, 2012 at 17:05
Fred, you are completely brainwashed. By the way I am not Chinese. So relax and try to think. 100K is it so huge? When in Ukraine pro-West Orange revolution starts i think there were about 200,000 on squer. But some years later people of Ukraine drasticly changed their opinion. When I a was talking to Chinese i realize just one thing. They are different. Ethnically they are similar but mentally really different. Its true for reople in one city but especially about humans from diff. provinces. Thats what i like in China. So whatever you says about China its true. Its funny and interesting.
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Kastus
October 26, 2012 at 23:43
Fred, If you teach History I completely don't understand you. From History you should find out that only The Strong is Right. It was forever. Tibet? Xinjiang? Are you serious? I don't deny that is Colonization. But the softest colonization The World ever known. Maybe colonization in XX century looks for you like something unacceptable. But for example look at Australia. In XX century the world was watching ordinary genocide of native people. Children were separated from their families to be growing in Catholic European tradition. And now aborigens are lost people without any future in their country. Does China the same? Do you really think so? I don't know any other counties give minorities much more opportunities than title nation. But in China it is the Law! China don't kill Tibetan protestors. You lie. Maybe there were come local accident but really few. I think Britain kill far more people in Asia in the same period. In the clashes in Tibet and Xinjiang most of victims were han Chinese. And if gomvt takes some actions its just in order of establishing, safety. Self-immolate action now happen in Europe too. Causing by economical reasons but it doesn't matter. They are monks, sacrifice themselves is their occupation. Muslims can bomb themselves. But I am sure someone rule this process. Actually this occasions happened not in Tibet but in other Provinces. Look at India, look at Pakistan, look at Birma. 30 years ago they were at similar positions. Bur where now is China and where are they? Its unprecedented achievement for such huge country. Or do you think in democratic India people live better? The Time! What is the great ruler. If Scotland isn't be so long under England ruling I think you will have much more aggressive aspirations. Don't believe. Look at North Ireland. In relation to Hong Kongers or Taiwanese they have been lived separately long time. So some of them think they are better than mainlanders. More clever, more democratic, more skillful. I think it's ordinary arrogance typical for rich people. But some of them really think they are another people. Despite ethnically they are mostly the same. And as I know most of Hong Kongers complain not with Chinese govmt but with ill-mannered mainlenders.
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Sifan64
October 27, 2012 at 14:00
i believe that the opium wars were a necessary evil. Firstly, compared to other wars in Chinese history, it was an almost bloodless war, opium was the best pain killer then known, no one forced Chinese to use it and China's Manchu emperor could have ended the Opium trade at any time by strict enforcement of domestic prohibition, like he forced all Han Chinese to grow pigtails or face decapitation. Secondly, China at the time practiced child crippling called footbinding, firstly in order to make women take away women's independence and secondly because crippled feet were attractive while uncrippled feet were considered unattractive. Men fantasized about holding tiny crippled feet in their hands while copulating and wrote pornographic texts about it. China was thus a nation of child molesters and crippled-foot fetishists. Almost all girls were crippled, the exceptions being the very poor and non Han-Chinese-for example Manchu women did not do it; Ci Xi the last Manchu empress did not have crippled feet. The process was literally a form of torture, it took years and started when girls were only three. The custom began at the end of the Tang dynasty and lasted until the 1930s. You can still find women with crippled feet today. What are the long term effects on a nation of this history of abuse and torture of children? I think you can see it in the way that Chinese treat each other today, and in the comments of some people on this blog. The opium wars lit the fuse which ended Imperial China and the practice of foot crippling. How can this not be considered a good thing? That is why enlightened Chinese thank Britain for the Opium wars. Unfortunately they are small minority. The majority have still not fully outgrown the history of hundreds of years of crippling and being crippled. It will take a few more generations for that to change. Mark Kitto lived in China 16 years, married a Chinese, had children, learned Chinese culture well and created employment for local people for many years. Anyone of these facts should entitle him to be allowed to naturalise. But until China has outgrown its tortured past, that is not going to happen.
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Steven
October 27, 2012 at 14:49
I have read and thoroughly enjoyed Mark Kitto's book about 3 years ago and in that book he painted a romantic picture of his little cafe' business in Mogashan. Happy in his retreat which he sees as a respite from his magazine 'empire' in Shanghai which he professed to have been nationalised by his competitors. The lovely story finished with the reader thinking that he, Mark, with his wife and children finally found peace in the otherwise 'hostile' host country, which he loved and finally called home. It gave the reader the impression that a foreigner has finally become Chinese accepted by the community in Mogashan as well as his host country China. The book was published as a non-fiction, which means a personal story of Mark's personal experiences in China. His book was entitled "Cuckoo China: How I lost a fortune and found life in China". The title in itself conveys exactly what Mark was trying to say. There is life in China despite the turmoil. What happened to Mark and his sanctuary? Why the change? I offer two possibilities: 1: On his book, he mentioned the possibilities of book two a follow up to the highly publicised book one. I must say, I would be a ready customer for his book two. I was hunger for book two, eager to find out what happened after he finally opened his lovely cafe cum restaurant in the romantic setting on Mogashan. I even considered travelling from Australia to visit Mogashan just to dine in Mark's cafe and chance a meet with the author, whilst he waitered and cooked. Perhaps this inflammatory article he wrote in Prospect is Mark's publisher's marketing machinery playing out their pre-launch strategy. This sounds like a great pre-cursor to his up-coming second book. Most readers would want to read more about his thoughts / cum experiences in China. Why the sudden change and now wanting to leave his life he finally found. Perhaps an appropriate title might be "Cuckooed China: How I found life and lost it" 2: Another perspective might simply be, after so many years fighting to be accepted, Mark had finally become a real Chinese. Accepted by the community and treated as a putongren living the life of the laobaixing (the common people) and stripped off his western status and the benefits that comes with being western. Without the benefit of the western status that is bestowed on most foreigners in China, the hard and often stressful life of living in a country going through its first economic take-off has perhaps taken its toll on Mark. Perhaps for Mark, it is the realisation of a disappointed dream. Being a real Chinese may not be as romantic as he envisioned it to be. Perhaps he was trying to be Chinese from a western perspective and from this perspective did not like what he saw. If the Mongols and Manchus (both foreigners) became "more Chinese than the Chinese" what I wonder would be Mark's issues? In his article Mark offered a list of reasons supporting his decision to leave the country he loved. One particular development that Mark did not like when he compared it with the western economic take-offs was the use of slavery. Starting from the industrial revolution of the mid 1800s to the post WW ll economic take-off across the Atlantic from UK. The previous and current super powers of this world both used slavery to develop their economic advantage. The British Empire 'outsourced slavery" by colonising countries around the globe and used cheap colonised labours to feed the mother country's industrial revolution. The US learned from the previous super power and imported slavery to fuel their economic-take offs. Trying to contrast the current economic Chinese take-off and judging it from a western perspective will not contribute to the utopia that Mark is trying to imagine. If we could take history into perspective this list provided by Mark could just as easily be used to characterise previous countries, which experienced their initial economic take-offs a number of centuries ago. Go to any community, or country or continent, the relentless status grabbing conscious society will exist in all forms. It's a basic human trait not exclusive to any country or continent and I can bet will exist in every country Mark seeks to finally settle in. If I were to place a bet on which of the two possibilities above explains Mark's reason for writing the article, I cannot go past the first one: a pre-cursor to his book number two. First set expectations from current and potential readers, feed them with a controversial article, polarise opinions and then launch the book. In this way you get three distinct customer base - those who agree, those who do not and those customers who disagrees with each other. For one I will definitely buy your book Mark. You got me.
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helenahr42
October 27, 2012 at 15:19
Mark Kitto chose to spend his working life in China. Why should he and his Chinese wife assume that it is just fine to come to this country, bringing two young children, and make use of the health service and education system that British workers have paid for through taxation? What have he and his wife contributed to the UK? The UK is awash with foreigners, including vast hordes of Chinese. One my children is at uni and 60% of the students doing the same course are Chinese. It is all utterly mad.
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Kastus
October 27, 2012 at 21:41
2Fred 1. In relation to HK long life under British wasn't will HK people. Britain just conquered this territory. Nobody asks nobody. So thanks to China hongkogers have Freedom as never before. 2.At first as you said everyone did bad things. At second what is matter? 3. I didnt know exactly how many churches were destroyed in Tibet. Bad things happened. But many tibetian also shared Marxist ideas. And in Nepal they are popular. And in 1953 China Red Army faced no resisting. But Scotland was changed completely and lost its historical heritage. The same as many other counties and continents. For example you are speak gaelic arn't you? Cantonese can and Harbinese can. On the North there are a lot of dialects and languages. 4 Actually I dont have enough information why they committed suicide. 5.You want 50 cases in such rich region like Europe? 6. North Ireland was just example how many clashes can take place if colonization is in proccess. I don't wanna stand to any side. 7. The most interesting point wich proves that you nonetheless brainwashed. "But we dont support nightmare North Korea like China does or nightmare African genocidal regimes like China does." LOL Saudi Arabi is much worse regime than North Korea. They have money unlike NK but supress they people very hard. Women there have rights equal animals. It's simply fascist regime. And about Africa. The West colonized them for ages, didn't paid any compensation. And them after parade of Independence they're just are manipulating their weak government. France takes part in Ruanda genocide not China. USA destabilize Somali not China. And the worst thing is economical genocide. The USA and Europe are breaking laws about honest competition, usind a lot of subsidies for farmers and killing african economics. They just don't let african people rise heads. The Chinese do. And it's great. Because they give African people jobs. African people get a chance to learn fishing. The West can only give fish - that's awful. The West was realizing the same politics in China. Many trade barriers and etc. USA dont wanna honest competition. The USA all the time manipulate dollar breaking all agreements but accuse that China is manipulator. Funny.
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Fred
October 28, 2012 at 14:37
Kastus, no doubt Saudi Arabia has extremely poor human rights. But its people can leave the country and are not starving - plus women can drive now, so things are improving!!! Amputations, executions, stonings (in poorer areas in villages in Iran for example) all exist and are heavily criticized by US and Europe. US DOES oppose Taliban etc and this is one example of religious fundamentalism that causes this misery. Yes it does trade with Saudi but it does with CHina and other countries too. It needs the oil. It refuses to be poor - ok - it's a cynical motive but US is no angel.Saddam was supported early on and he fell out of favour for cynical reasons. I agree with you on that. [edit] Human Rights SituationThe human rights situation in the camp is described in detail by Lee Soon-ok in her testimony to the United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary. She explains how the prisoners have no rights and how they are treated at the mercy of the guards.[5] [edit] Slave LaborThe prisoners are forced to work around 18 hours per day at the camps factories. If someone does not work quickly enough, he or she is beaten. Sometimes prisoners sleep at their workplaces to fulfill the production quota. All this involves frequent work accidents and many prisoners are crippled from the work or from torture. [6] [edit] Diseases/HygienicsThe prisoners have to sleep crowded with 80 – 90 people in 30 m² (300 square feet) flea infested rooms. They are only occasionally allowed to use the toilet (one for about 300 people) and may only take a shower after several months. Most diseases like paratyphus result from the bad nutrition.[7] [edit] MalnutritionFood rations are 100 grams of broken corn three times a day and a salt soup. In case of rule violations food rations are reduced. Lee Soon-ok reported that prisoners even killed rats and ate them raw in order to survive.[8] [edit] TortureThere are 78 punishment cells in the camp, each 60 cm (24 inches) wide and 110 cm (43 inches) high, where prisoners are locked up several days. Afterwards many of them are unable to walk and some even die from this. Prisoners are often beaten, kicked or whipped. Lee Soon-ok was tortured being forced to drink a large quantity of water until she fainted (water torture) and almost died from this. During her sentence she witnessed many types of torture.[9] [edit] InfanticidesPregnant women are forced to have abortions by injections. Lee Soon-ok witnessed babies still born alive being killed directly at birth.[10] [edit] ExecutionsAgain and again (eight times in 1988) there are public executions in the prison yard in front of all prisoners.[11] [edit] Prisoners (Witnesses)Lee Soon-ok (1987–1992 in Kaechon) was imprisoned on alleged embezzlement of state property, when she refused to put material on the side for her superior. She was sentenced to 13 years in a prison camp, but released earlier under a surprise amnesty.[12] Ji Hae-nam (1993–1995 in Kaechon) was imprisoned on disruption of the socialist order, as she sang a South Korean pop song and was denunciated by a neighbor. She was sentenced to 3 years in a prison camp, but released after 2 years and 2 months.[13] On the other hand,look at North Korea:
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helenahr42
October 28, 2012 at 19:48
2Fred - You are poorly informed if you believe that women are allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. They are not. Some brave Saudi women are challenging the ludicrous religious edict that has banned them from driving. The great men of religion think that driving will tempt women into sex, promote pornography and create more homosexuals! Golly! I do hope that someone has told the Saudi ruler, King Abdullah, that his great friend, HM Queen Elizabeth, is an accomplished female driver. It is all very worrying.
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Kastus
October 29, 2012 at 20:37
"And I also hope that Chinese will realise that North Korea is the most evil threatening power in the world". You are repiting stuid slogans from mass-media all the time. North Korea looks very sadly in comparison to its neigbors. But it is far from evil threatening power in the world. NK didn't start any war. Famine is a real problem. But there are a lot of countries in Asia (Bangladesh, Laos) and Africa (many) which have exactly the same problems and mach worse. But in NK 90% responsibility for this situation is on blocade from some countries. But I don't wanna continue discussion which country is worse. Just ask why do you accuse China? China don't sell weapon to NK, don't dictate any politics, don't have any troops on NK territory (like USA in Saudy Arabia). China just protect provide, provide no war politics in own border. And finally thanks to China NK is changing. Many people from NK are crossing the border and doing business now.
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Fred
October 30, 2012 at 15:15
ANyway, I'm sorry Kastus. If you want to find out about North Korea, please dont follow the GOVERNMENT LINE -as you always do. I MYSELF FOLLOW NO LINE,NOT MY COUNTRY:S MEDIA (which often says very very good things about China I might add) NOT THE US MEDIA (which often says very very good things about CHina and self-criticizes often, the mark of a free ctrountry.) Howver, there was a vote in Hing Kong. The majority voted against Patriotism Class being mandatory in Hong Kong because the Hong Kong people argued this was brainwashing. It's a fact. If you dont beleive me, go to Hong Kong as ask the people there or check the voting register. AS for me, Kastus, I am for a properous China. You see me above arguing with Westerners about teh Opium War. I take the CHina line. So dont pigeopn hole me into 'brainwashing Western media jockey' because the show doesnt fit. You just hurt yourself if you do that.
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Fred
October 30, 2012 at 15:16
ANyway, I'm sorry Kastus. If you want to find out about North Korea, please dont follow the GOVERNMENT LINE -as you always do. I MYSELF FOLLOW NO LINE,NOT MY COUNTRY:S MEDIA (which often says very very good things about China I might add) NOT THE US MEDIA (which often says very very good things about CHina and self-criticizes often, the mark of a free ctrountry.) Howver, there was a vote in Hing Kong. The majority voted against Patriotism Class being mandatory in Hong Kong because the Hong Kong people argued this was brainwashing. It's a fact. If you dont beleive me, go to Hong Kong as ask the people there or check the voting register. AS for me, Kastus, I am for a properous China. You see me above arguing with Westerners about teh Opium War. I take the CHina line. So dont pigeopn hole me into 'brainwashing Western media jockey' because the shoe doesnt fit. You just hurt yourself if you do that.
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Fred
October 30, 2012 at 15:22
Bottim line is, Kastus, The Hong Kong people voted against studying Patriotism Class or Chinese guoxue. There is nothing you can say. It is a fact. A scientific fact. They said it was brainwashing. So it's not me! It's the Hong Kong people. Now, as much as I would like to improve your English, I have nothing more to say. If you want, you can pay me. But you will have to vist another country and broaden your mind. Try North Korea. Maybe the labour camps there.. (By the way, I charge 250 RMB an hour)
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Kastus
October 30, 2012 at 23:51
Fred, I am very happy for your wage rate in China. Despite my poor English, I am not Chinese. And my native media are so bad so I don't believe them since the Childhood. I just read news from many sources and ask why this or another event have happened. Relax about the Opium war. I don't think that Chinese blame you or Britain. It was long ago in the past. It's enough that you are not proud of it (when I was to London I don't like seeing many stolen artifacts - but it is just my personal impression, maybe I am not right). And Britich aren't real reason why this shit happened. Real reason is China's Weakness. But the Opium war is just good reminder what is the price of western suggestions and principles. At last I want to say everyone is brainwashed in a varying degree. Because when we are born we don't have any objective information. We absorb it whole life. And everyone biased, everyone has a lot of stereotypes. It depends on many points. Education, age, nationality, personality, access to different information and ability critically work with it. The last is the most important. In the whole History there are just two methods ruling people - dictate (conviction) and manipulation. Dictate is much more popular (is used at work, families, army and etc) because it is simplier. But manipulating is much more sophisticated and off course by far effective. It is used by religion, cheaters and democracy. Using it you can let people to believe that they voluntarily want to do something. You can say it's untrue. There a lot of free counties where people can do what nobody but only they want. But it is fairytale. Because at first people want to believe in something and someone. At second don't have enough qualification to make right choice. For example now in American elections people don't know the most of points candidates programs (they have no time and interest). So no wonder that in USA result of voting I always in borders 45-55 and next nothing changes. So we have 95% of populists in the heads of western states. And we don't know who is real rulers, who are behind. For example Berlusconi - the most popular PM of Italian history who lead his country to economical collapse. And now non-elected Monti corrects his mistakes. I don't want to say democracy is bad. No way. Actually Democracy also use dictate methods. The Law of any state is anthem of dictatorships. So both methods have advantages and disadvantages. Anyway you have to use combination. State it's like a child. In some points you have to be dictator, in another you can give opportunity for own choice. But you know that you can affect to your child to make right choice. If you don't do this, his bad friend can affect and etc. Back to state, government also can consider that influence from other states also can be positive or negative. The Opium war is good reminder.
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Fred
October 31, 2012 at 02:39
Your English is pretty good. I believe you are wrong about most people not caribg about pokitics. But sometimes people give up because it seems that no party has anything unique to offer. But parties,voting and politics, again, can affect 1. School fees 2. Whether a country goes to war or not 3. Whether health care is free or insurance-based 4. And a range of other issues People have to be interested in policy and political issues because they are affected. Confucius used to argue that ( which most Communists argue today) that the Government is the parent and the citizen the child. I find this view patronizing and inimical to democratic consciousness. North Korea constantly threatens to invade the world, South Korea or both. . I dont trust Western media, so I go with Youtube. On Youtube, you see the truth. Not read. Also, I speak good Chinese. So I ask theChinese. And most Chinese tod me tgey didnt like the Chinese government. One guy said he wanted US to invade China and beat them. No joke. Local government in China very very greedy and corrupt. Believe me Kastus, Imnot stupid. AIDS was spread in Chinaby local government greed and 'face'. Read what the Chinesedoctor said, the one who discoveredthe AIDS epidemic inChina. You say no system is perfect,but democracy is the best. England is far freerthan most countries. I know it. But if Im wring, then Ill accept it.
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Kastus
October 31, 2012 at 05:01
Local government in China is corrupted. I can't believe it ) Where local government isn't corrupted? In India, USA, South Korea? Or in Britain? If Britain is so good why are you not there? Why are you in China?
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Kastus
October 31, 2012 at 15:06
I think corruption is something ordinary for developing country (in Britain on local level situation no doubt better. Even much better than in USA. But on state level - i am not sure. For example invasion to Iraq costed a lot of lifes seems like result of lobbying from oil companies). So. Britain is by far rich, developed, democratic, non-corrupted and etc. Why you are not there now? I just can't understand your motivation.
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Fred
October 31, 2012 at 15:47
I never said England was richer. It isnt. I said Hong Kong voted against being brainwashed by China. Maybe I dont want to live in England. Maybe I like corrupt countries. Maybe they dont affect me. Maybe Im interested in China and like living there. Maybe I dont. Maybe you will never understand because you know NOTHING about China or North Korea or me. But you arrogantly call mebrainwashed when the issue is Hong Kong is a great country and refused to. e brai washed by bully China.
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Fred
October 31, 2012 at 15:48
I never said England was richer. It isnt. I said Hong Kong voted against being brainwashed by China. Maybe I dont want to live in England. Maybe I like corrupt countries. Maybe they dont affect me. Maybe Im interested in China and like living there. Maybe I dont. Maybe you will never understand because you know NOTHING about China or North Korea or me. But you arrogantly call mebrainwashed when the issue is Hong Kong is a great country and refused to. e brain washed by bully China.
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Fred
October 31, 2012 at 15:48
I never said England was richer. It isnt. I said Hong Kong voted against being brainwashed by China. Maybe I dont want to live in England. Maybe I like corrupt countries. Maybe they dont affect me. Maybe Im interested in China and like living there. Maybe I dont. Maybe you will never understand because you know NOTHING about China or North Korea or me. But you arrogantly call mebrainwashed when the issue is Hong Kong is a great country and refused to be brain washed by bully China.
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Fred
October 31, 2012 at 15:49
I never said England was richer. It isnt. I said Hong Kong voted against being brainwashed by China. Maybe I dont want to live in England. Maybe I like corrupt countries. Maybe they dont affect me. Maybe Im interested in China and like living there. Maybe I dont. Maybe you will never understand because you know NOTHING about China or North Korea or me. But you arrogantly call me brainwashed when the issue is Hong Kong is a great country and refused to be brain washed by bully China.
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Kastus
October 31, 2012 at 16:15
So in HK you earn more money than in UK. It's normal. HK in comparing to China is a state like Monaco in comparing to France. Many europeans want to live in Monte-Carlo. But I think I know enough about China. I ve been to 10 different cities. I also speak Chinese. And can say just one thing: as Madonna sing - you only see what your eyes want to see. I was in Britain too. I can't say I ve conversated a lot about politics with local people. But I felt that British also very critical for their government, struggling for many things. Inability to buy house, fear lose job, competition from immigrants, high prices, lack of perspectives and inability to influence on govmt also. Is it untrue? Actually how long have you lived in mainland China?
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Fred
October 31, 2012 at 18:20
Are you saying I only see what my eyes want to see?
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Alex
November 1, 2012 at 08:58
Come across this article accidentally and found that it is long but amusing to read. Me, as a HK people grow up in HK and went to UK to complete my first degree, then back to HK and worked over 10+ years, got my master degree there and now working in China before I spent over 10 years to work with my Chinese colleagues. I think I could say something to "harmonize" the conversation between Fred, Kastus and the others. Somehow, I read the full long article which is rare to HK people because we love short and quick stories in Chinese(Traditional). I share some of the viewpoints from the author. I am not going back to the history that before 1997 but just to share some of my recent observations. The "$$" value that mentioned by the author is serious. It is important to the mainland Chinese. If you goto Taiwan, you will easily find that people's priority is not on $. Of course many mainland Chinese are still very nice and kind, before you two encountered any conflicts in $. Back to the view point of the HKers. I didn't goto protests which does not meant that I do not "care". And I am sure a lots of my friends are the same. HKers are less proactive to be involved in politic because they just care about $. So 100,000 people protests is a big number. As a HKer, I am just worry that HK will become another Tibet. Today, the ex-officer assigned by China government to HK before 1997 already said that those HKers who not happy should give up the HK ID card. The history is repeating. China is exporting mainland Chinese to HK, acquiring the medias including newspaper, TV and ratio stations and etc. The traditional HKers are being diluted very quickly, traditional Chinese are replacing by simplified Chinese and no more accurate pronounced HK Cantonese.
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Fred
November 1, 2012 at 18:23
Kastus, like most pro-government liners, is. blissfully ignorant of North Korea and wait.. he can't believe that Chinese local government is actually corrupt! Even after Bo Xilai and illegal and grabs!!! And he blames UK for being dishonest by finding an excuse to invade Iraq, even after Saddam gassed thousands of kurds to death and starting burning oil. Ask Tony Blair today, he says he would still invade today.
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Fred
November 1, 2012 at 18:28
Ahhh! illegal land grabs.. It's not that your English is bad Kastus. It' s just that you are an a hole. That guy just agreed on the obvious: 100,000 is a large number. Now, why couldn't you do that fifteen posts ago? Do you not understand politics or the concept of a number? Because you have a big chip on your shoulder? Not my problem.
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Fred
November 1, 2012 at 18:36
Just ask yourself, Kastus, did I study Politics for two years? Have I lived in China for five years (you probably qualify) and have I studied Philosophy for four years? How many languages do I speak? Then you can come on this forum and point the finger. But now, what you should be asking yourself is ' Am I a good use of a qwerty board, oxygen and space? ' Only because you made the Hong Kong guy come out of the closet.
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Kastus
November 1, 2012 at 22:32
Fred: "It has plutocracy and fascism in the blood" And one more question for asking yourself "Are you still think that you are not brainwashed?"
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Kastus
November 1, 2012 at 23:37
To facture Fred, "HKers are less proactive to be involved in politic because they just care about $" - Alex said, not me. "The traditional HKers are being diluted very quickly, traditional Chinese are replacing by simplified Chinese and no more accurate pronounced HK Cantonese" - it's reasonable. But it is the world's tendency not unique for China. I gave comparison China - HK, France - Monaco. Monaco politically maybe has more independence. But in cultural aspects monegasks lose their identification as other french little nations. So it's question of cultural strenght of HKrs. Nothing more.
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Kastus
November 2, 2012 at 00:31
"I studied Philosophy for four years..." Philosophy as other sciences requires much more time to be studied. Maybe whole life is not enough. Especially for human like you who allows yourself so undeniable and the same time naive approvals. I can arguing a lot about every points. For example about so honest Tony Blair who is with pleasure working for "non-corrupted" Kazakhstan's govmt. Maybe you really think that the Britain joined US invasion to Iraq because majority of British vote for this. Not because Britain is just US satellite. Its good for you that you don't feel any responsibility for killing many thousands people in Iraq for 10 years. It's was joke that I don't believe in Corruption in China. As I said Corruption is everywhere. It's an ordinary phenomenon especially inherent for developing counties. Coz when economical environment, style of life are changing, laws are getting outdated it's always a big challenge. There were plenty of corruption scandal in S.Korea, Taiwan, HK too. Anyway in India, Russia and in many many other countries situation is definitely no better. Corruption is very interesting phenomenon. For example in the EU corruption connects with bureaucracy and etc. I can take a long lecture about it but...
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Tony
November 7, 2012 at 09:03
How are they brainwashed? The ignorance that I have seen in China is astounding, though it is changing thanks to the internet and the ability to access information sources. It astounds me that we find it fine to openly discuss the wrongs of our own country yet Chinese can at times cry and get offended so easily if you discuss issues that foreigners see. NO PLACE IS PERFECT but debate can bring positive change
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Mark Newham
November 7, 2012 at 10:32
Tony - How true. While westerners have little trouble with the authorities when criticising or makiing fun of policies or politicians, the Chinese have no truck with such behaviour. That's why they banned my book 'Limp Pigs' there for daring to tweak the tiger's tail. PS to Sifan - Thanks for pointing out that Article 35 of the PRC Constitution enshrines the right of Chinese citizens to free speech. But your comment might have carried more weight had you also included reference to Article 51 which states: 'The exercise by citizens of the People's Republic of China of their freedoms and rights may not infringe upon the interests of the state, of society and of the collective, or upon the lawful freedoms and rights of other citizens.' Hah. Gotcha.
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Tobias W.
November 7, 2012 at 10:42
The reality of Communist Party rule in China is now very obvious thanks to their party meeting: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/07/opinion/in-china-unwelcome-at-the-party.html This may only concern known critics of the one party rule, but other restrictions apply to everybody in Beijing as well, such as having to register in a written form whenever you enter a cab. Or registering to buy kitchen knifes and other idiotic rules. My take on this is that with more emancipation of the common citizen, the party gets more nervous because in their heart they know their rule is illegal and they are crooks, only after enriching themselves.
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Tony
November 8, 2012 at 11:46
The plundering of sovereign wealth by communist party leaders is another issue that I feel does not receive enough attention. You only have to see the amounts of money that are invested in foreign countries buy the children of these party officials and the vehicles and houses they live in at the expense of the Chinese citizens. This certainly was not what the great Chairman Mao had envisaged if sure.
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Fred
November 8, 2012 at 12:05
Have you personally seen them? I agree with you.
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Tony
November 8, 2012 at 13:44
A property at Wolseley Road Sydney was sold recently for $32.4 million to Jiang Mei, the wife of Zeng Wei, the son of Zeng Qinghong, a former influential vice-president of China. A tidy little sum I wonder how they made their money? The shear Hippocracy of the of the communist leaders and their families.
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Roger
November 17, 2012 at 18:38
The Righteousness of God Through Faith 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
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Vin
November 17, 2012 at 23:10
XiaoMo: "Unfortunately, the CCP loves propaganda and it works. Chinese people have responded to it very well. Unfortunately most are not even able to consider the alternative, and they expect the rest of the world to believe what they believe." Tony: "How are they brainwashed? The ignorance that I have seen in China is astounding, " I think all you guys make very good points. I have been shocked to realize to what extent propaganda really does have a deep effect on even the most educated chinese people. I find this deeply disturbing. I now have a chinese boyfriend for 2 years and while love each other very much, it is undeniable that political discussions have been more than awkward. I have been torturing myself trying to remain open to the idea that, as a westerner, I may also be somewhat the product of "western propaganda". Yet no matter how much I want to remain open to me being somewhat subject to "anti-chinese biased media", it is hard to accept. Of course, daily life is more than politics, and it could be possible to ignore and downplay those worldview differences, but at some point it does me make it hard to understand or respect each other's views. For you guys who obviously have dealt with those people who have kind of an "us versus the mean westerners" mindset, how do you approach them? Is there hope that they might realize how much they have been manipulated? Any thoughts welcome!
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Fred
November 19, 2012 at 17:52
There are a couple of things. One is the Chinese idea that human rights are not universal,but comes from merit. Or being rich. We don't like this idea but they don't believe in equality. Secondly, we did use them as slaves in world war one,some 250,000 of them. Thirdly, see El Salvador and Missing by Stone and Gavras. The Western government,namely US are undeniably evil. And very arrogant. They look down on the poor outside the US.
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Waiguoren
November 19, 2012 at 23:45
The problem of human rights is real for all nations, but it has a distinct weight in countries such as China where the appeal to human rights is utterly cut off from the question of what the rights appealed to are grounded in. What is the moral/legal code of today's China standing on? What is its recognized foundation? Surely no Heavenly order of things, and no God. More likely to be a national will fueled and channeled by tyrannical oligarchs. Freedom grounded in unfreedom? Naturally, a farce without humor. Freedom treated as cash.
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Sifan64
November 20, 2012 at 07:13
Lord Koos Your view is certainly widespread but it's not based on a detailed knowledge of history. Your comparisons with modern day drug cartels are simplified and facile. It's easy to lump all drugs and drug traffic together but it's not accurate, for the following reasons; 1. Modern drug cartels do not deal in opium. They deal in stronger and more addictive opiates such as heroin. 2. There are no legitimate purposes for the supply of these illegal narcotics, because these days there are many alternative painkillers available; in those days opium was the only strong painkiller readily available. 3. Possession and supply of heroine is strictly prohibited in all countries today apart from medical purposes; in the 19th-century possession of opium was legal in both Britain and China. The opium war was China's attempt to reduce the international supply, not prohibit opium, it did not tackle Chinese domestic production of opium until 70 years later. It's a bit like as if the present British government suddenly banned the import of alcohol while allowing it to be manufactured and consumed within the UK.
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Sifan64
November 20, 2012 at 07:22
Vin I think that you should both try to see each other's point of use by reading more books and becoming more aware of the background to the issues about which you disagree, that way you can have more informed discussions about these issues and may find some common ground. Good luck!
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The Lord Ben
November 28, 2012 at 12:48
I would point this out, what happens to the mountain lion if you keep feeding it? Go figure,
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Fred
November 28, 2012 at 16:49
Lord Ben, you are not easy to understand but imlistening
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bhaskar
November 29, 2012 at 14:49
i have never visited china but now that I see an outsider view of china , I still do not understand how chinese have graduated themselves to rule this world by sheer level of confidense.. hats off to chinese rulers who foresaw and made china a super power.
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SBD
November 30, 2012 at 02:00
Chinese Citizen abroad! How would you feel if by chance all the Chinese people who reside in western countries would be ask to go back to China and give the people of those western countries a peace of mind. I wish to remind you all that there are thousands and thousands of Chinese ( I happen to know many of them ) who left China by ways of marrying a foreigner NOT for LOVE but they could never make it in China with earing of 2000rmb a month. We wstern countries support your Chinese citizens. Giving them money. education. health care for free etc.... What do they give us in China ?
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Kastus
December 3, 2012 at 07:52
Oh. Discussion is still not over. Fred. Do you think is it just about the past? Look at Israel, Iraq, Afganistan, Libia, Saudi Arabia and its wahabbit missioners who create panice in North half of Africa. The West and his satellites still kill people everywhere. The USA have army troops all over the world. Do you think imperialism is ended? For example, Senkaku/ Diaoyudao islands. It is not Japan who created this problem. It is the USA. They didnt return islands to China and gave them to agressor in WW2. Its funny when Chinese accuse Japanese. Japanese simply dont have right to vote. The USA are deciding everything. And Britain is also USA satellit. Divide et impera! The USA steal qualified people from whole world because they have dollar. The USA print dollars and spread inflation to whole planet. 300-mln country imposed dollar as world currence for 7-bln world. Its basic of theys power. Its economical Piramide. But it is ending. This sithuation caused current crisis. But the world is changing. Asia will rule the world. Especially China. Anyway. I hope it will be the better world.
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Fred
December 3, 2012 at 10:15
Kastus, i dont like you. Because of your silly debating style and extreme bias. And youre stupid,jumping to conclusions with people you dont know. But you may be right on some points. Please do me a favour. Im no expert. Reply to SBDs point. Much better debate there.
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Ann
December 7, 2012 at 02:21
I would like to join your discussion. Dear, native Chinese, British, American! I can understand your bad attitude to each other, because of heritage that you got after long-term history conflicts. Let's be more democratic! More kind to each other, people who wrote comments on this site didn't take part in it! State boundaries cannot deter people of moving around the world any more! We live in new era!
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Daniel Cox
December 8, 2012 at 16:54
It seems many have quite strong views on this article. I can only say that for myself (having lived & worked for ten years in a different Asian country), the move I recently made back home was for exactly the same reasons. In my humble opinion, this article is one of the most honest reflections that, very respectfully, highlights difficult mindset problems throughout Asia which, although understandable to a degree, do not reflect the reality that many Asian people have successfully relocated to the west - with full citizenship and rights, whereas for a westerner to attempt this in most Asian countries is normally impossible because of mindset and actual strict local law.
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jd0033
December 8, 2012 at 21:57
Had a good reading indeed. I'm a Chinese living in Paris with my French husband, and we visited Moganshan in 2009 before leaving my country. It is sad indeed that you feel a bit abandoned after so much deep motion towards the country you love. But at the same time, not everyone understands that we are all the same inside despite that we are born without any choice into different countries and different races. Just been in London, I like the rich culture here in the UK and in France, but I don't expect more than I should, I like France, but I won't be French... Take care Sometimes it doesn't matter what other people say about you and about your opinions, you told us because you believe you are among us and that you talk about China just like you would talk about Europe, and I hope others will not always relate your comments to your face.
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Fred
December 9, 2012 at 11:08
Thays true Ann. I often try and see the Chinese perspective. But im afraid that the CCP perspective is not always the China perspective. As 100,000 protesting Hong Kong people amply demostrated,much to the chagrin of Kastus, who would have it that all Cantonese fall in line with the Han idoctrinating philosophy of plutocracy and unbridled power.
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Fred
December 9, 2012 at 11:09
Thats true Ann. I often try and see the Chinese perspective. But im afraid that the CCP perspective is not always the China perspective. As 100,000 protesting Hong Kong people amply demostrated,much to the chagrin of Kastus, who would have it that all Cantonese fall in line with the Han idoctrinating philosophy of plutocracy and unbridled power.
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Byard Pidgeon
December 12, 2012 at 17:23
So much of this article is hilarious, if one substitutes "USA" or "American" for far too many of the references to "China" or "Chinese". Here's a great one: "Leadership contenders might think, and here I hypothesise, that once they are in position they can show their “true colours.” Too late they realise that will never be possible." Go ahead, kids...have fun reading the article again and making these fun, simple changes...a laugh riot for you and your friends!
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pangloss
December 22, 2012 at 00:58
It's interesting how experiences of non-Japanese living in Japan are similar to non-Chinese living in China. The similar refrain - "you are not ......therefore you cannot understand us". A book written in the 90s about Japan - was called the Enigma of Japanese Power. The premise that in the country there is no one who is responsible. Like the imperial palace in the middle of Tokyo - a vast empty space surrounded by a moat. Like Japan, China collectively and as individuals lack self awareness - other awareness. China has been described as a autistic nation. Poor strategic thinkers - this is a country conquered by backward nomads who ruled it for centuries. It doesn't learn from other countries, don't learn other people exist. Doesn't learn how to negotiate with other people - have back and forth with them - as European culture was formed and Indian culture and most cultures around the world. You have neighbours. I fear for the future of North Asia.
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sanjay
December 22, 2012 at 07:45
good
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John Ellis
December 31, 2012 at 08:09
I followed Kitto's articles for a number of years before cancelling my subscription to Prospect (for other reasons). They were small gems to garnish the wider news stories and glittered with truth. China is authoritarian, full stop. It is, therefore, by definition, going to have to change. The only other authoritarian regime in the world of note is capitalism and the same will happen to that. The buying up of Africa is a serious wake-up call to the world that capitalism under an authoritarian regime is even more dangerous than under a democracy. One other input to my meagre knowledge of China is the book 'The Republic of Wine' by Mo Yan. Frightening.
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Hk boy
January 3, 2013 at 03:36
Would like to share a few thoughts on here, read the article and comments and found it mildly one sided with prominent attack on the east. I was born in hk and grew up, educated and work in the uk. I can say now in my school years I was constantly harassed and a victim of racial abuse for many years. I have grown up in the 'west' so to speak and have family in china/hk of which I also grew up alongside with I visit often and so I have a semi quasi cultural understanding of 2 conflicting ways of life. I can understand how the two systems work and can appreciate why they are like the way they are. Now that I have explained my position and again any expression is purely my opinion only, I truly believe the real rascists are generally westerners, I know what your going to say, that you have loads of Chinese friends blah blah blah. I think there's always king to be a minority of genuinely nice people around, if you really believe you are 'not racist' and open your arms whole heartily to any culture I think you are in the extreme minority. I have found people to be only anti racists due to political correctness of the west, in the background I have witness and engaged in conversation with friends and work colleague (British) which is 100% racist. Now, I'm not saying Chinese are all problem free and the goverment is squeaky clean, but who are?! May I sceptical readers a few events not long ago which provides a fairly solid foundation as to why westerners are seen as 'outsiders'. Read up about it too as I'm only going to be brief. Oh and by the way these historical events (to the Chinese anyways as it greatly affected the countrys history are not taught in schools in the west, I wonder why...) Check out the opium war where the British engaged in the biggest illegal drug smuggling campaign in history, selling opium to the Chinese for tea allegedly (actual resource was silver for opium NOT tea as the Britain has no silver mines). When the Chinese robin hoods saw what was doing this they banded together and set fire to the British cargos in all fairness is an illigal trade private buisness Her Majesty send elite naval force and blew the Chinese to smithereens. As a result there was monetary compensation and hk was created and annexed to Britain. Another event is known as the 8 nation alliance, where countries such as Britain, American, France, Russia, Japan etc to put it bluntly ganged up and raided china During 1900s. Now I know western accounts will start correcting me stating it started with the boxer rebellion etc, really? When the US 'rebelled' it was called a revolution? Many ancient Chinese treasures were lost (stolen) during the bloodbath with women and children raped then murdered). the 'spoils' of war can be enjoyed by the British people in the British museum to this day. To put it into perspective it's say similar to modern NATO invading china, unthinkable isn't it? The west throughout history with its imperialistic views have conquered all four corners and plundered the world. They're friends when they see fit and backstabbers then in their interestto do so. I'm giving my own personal view of the west which I'm sure is also many Chineses view as well. So please next time you think the Chinese are suspicious people and are anti western, spare a few seconds and think why they would think this way. If I may I would like to use the same arguments as many westerns I'm sure on here which is I too have many British friends, does that make me a true friend or still a racist? When I engage in deep discussion with regards to these events the reason or 'excuses' I regularly get is 'I didn't do it, how can I be blamed for somthing done in the past?' well that's awfully convenient of the west isn't it? War crimes, Genova convention? China has been a relatively friendly race keeping to themselves through history, it is the west that has 'invaded' the world so please don't keep mentioning Tibet Tibet Tibet, isn't it the British who have shown that British sovereignty isn't directly related to its region even though Tibet is connected to china, falkland island isn't though infant on the other side of the Atlantic. China is the way it is, the west shouldn't continue it's imperial crusade to change china (ie definition of imperialism is to attempt to influence another country by either diplomacy or military). This is still happening now and I think the west (majority of public people) loves to turn a blind eye to for example the war in Iraq. In time the world will know similar to the 8 nation alliance invasion what the west did to the middle east starting from the crusades. Having said all this I do live and work in Britain, pay shed loads of tax but consider myself 'living here' and obide by its rules, can the west do the same over say in china? From what I have read on here I don't think so, mosts comments tend to question why can't the Chinese be more cooperative and listen and change to 'our' system and way of life? Hm Can I put the people of this board at ease despite chinas military expansion and massive investment in its arms, the Chinese generally are peaceful creatures, I don't think they have a mastermind plan to take over the world, it's there as a deterrent to stop historical event from happening again namely foreign invasions, of which I personally believe will happen again, however I hope it wouldn't. We should stop meeting each other on the battlefield if there's a difference and it can't be settled just leave it, try to be tolerate it which the west loves to preach, perhaps you should adopt your own policies first before criticising others? At the end we should not be political and keep it as separate entities peacefully engaging in trade and freindship which most of the time in history has worked well. There will always be western values which the Chinese won't agree on and vice versa, keep it that way and not change it respect it instead. Peace to everyone, there's only one earth and we all live on it. :) Ps on a personal note from my own experiences. Its not meant to attack or anything so please do not be offended. I find a concept hugely lacking in the west which there is an abundance of in the Chinese and it's called Honour.
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Ric
January 3, 2013 at 16:24
Over here in the Philippines, we have Chinese ships occupying and claiming ownership over the Scarborough Shoal, which is 220 kilometers away from the Philippines but 840 kilometers away from the nearest Chinese shore. The Chinese believe that they own the entire South China Sea. I don't think any country's ever claimed ownership of a sea before. I read some of the earlier comments saying that China is merely responding to the US "strategic encirclement" of China, implying that the US and China's neighbors are the ones at fault. These confused commenters have it backwards. The very reason the US and China's neighbors are trying to contain China in the first place is its arrogant aggression. The Chinese government is using the same method employed by the Nazis - stir up nationalism and invent an enemy to use as a scapegoat. For the Nazis it was Jews. For the Chinese it's Japan, Vietnam, the Philippines. The main purpose is to distract the Chinese people from China's numerous problems - worsening pollution, inhumane working conditions, and most of all, the many, many human rights violations of their nondemocratic government. A classic technique - divert the populace's attention from internal problems and focus it on alleged external "enemies." And the Chinese people, like mindless sheep, are falling for it every time. I used to think that China would be a better "world leader" than the US. Now I know better. China as it is now is unworthy to lead anything.
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Perpatetic One
January 4, 2013 at 02:19
Occidental AND Oriental The nub of this discussion--and the most pungent criticism imputed by Kitto--is that Chinese society (and Chinese values) are flawed; and that perforce China is unqualified to conduct itself as a world power, is likely to encounter unsuperable socio-economic problems in the coming generation; and is as a polity unable to secure and promote the liberties of its citizens. This is a big claim. It is in effect questioning the "very being" of the Chinese--their integrity as a people; and even the integrity of their personal relations as those self-same relations are seen to be tainted by the wider cultural order. The nub of this discussion, then, is as follows: Is China and Chinese culture terminally ill, or is its value system capable of outclassing (or at least co-existing and contrasting with) the occidental value system? Putting this another way: are there distinct Chinese "values" and, if so, are these values strong enough, flexible enough, nimble enough and deep enough to resource a new "China Century" and win currency and respect. Or are such Chinese values stale, unable to evolve, or evolve fast enough (perhaps even already dead), and therefore at the mercy of the occidental world view which will inexorably replace it in the march of progress? These are big questions. They are big for the world at large ... as China is now well and truly at large in the world. And they are big questions for every Chinese soul--and soul-searching can be seen in many of the posts here and elsewhere on this topic. Kitto's is an historicist--even a determinist--view. And this in itself is the big question for the last 300 years of political thought: is a society and culture such as China's a victim or prisoner of its very own history; is each Chinese person a victim and prisoner? Is China's history (read "glorious past") a dead weight rather than a wellspring of inspiration, thought, example and energy? Then there comes the question of agency? Is Kitto's indictment an indictment of a totalitarian state, or a "Chinese" totalitrarian state, or is it an indictment of the state and its people and the animating culture and values of the state and its people ... the "Chinese" themselves? It is hard to tell. My impression is that KItto's is a deep and pessimistic view, where he sees the Chinese relishing their history, values and "distinctness" but unwilling to take "the good with the bad" and therefore unable to "assay and question" themselves. And this "closed-ness" leads to a morass of internal (Chinese-to-Chinese) problems; and an inevitable antipathy toward (and even hostility to) outsiders. WHAT'S 70 YEARS? This correspondent's answer to the above--in short form--is that Chinese society and the Chinese soul--is a victim and prisoner of it long history, and that the woes of China and its citizens cannot be put down to 70 years of oppressive one-party statism, or 200 years of benign or bleak colonial occupation. The crisis in Chinese culture--and it is a crisis--is a crisis in values and social organization that runs deep through its history; and still permeates the life of each Chinese today. It is a crisis compounded, heavily, by the sheer weight of numbers which China now carries and which its leaders must factor. Here are some of the symptroms of the crisis which all share a common root: -- The supremacy of the Leviathan state (all the way down to the cusp of the last century) -- The intolerance of difference clothed by claims that the Chinese are "indifferent" to the outside world -- Gross disregard for personal privacy -- The supression of the individual in the family unit, to a suffocating extent -- The unchecked authority of the Big Man, and a dispiriting "yes boss" culture worse than the most lame American corporation -- Weak social organization camouflaged, historically, by the long-lived, feudal order and latterly by committees, cadres and the PSB -- Slavish reproduction of outmoded ideas and rituals--many devoid of their original true meanings -- Mawkish harkening to the "history's greats" with little delight in, and celebration of, "the new" in arts and letters -- Poor aesthetic sensibility for, or custodianship of, any area, street or resource which might be called a "common good" (a la environmental vandalism) -- Weak self-restraint masked by rigid norms of behavior albeit immediatley honored in the breach whenever possible All of these well-known aspects of the Chinese style have common roots : -- the inability to equitably share power at all levels in all ways -- the want of trust as a strong social bond uninfected by "relationships and connections" -- fatalism and negativity generally; and a feeling that freedom is always the portent of chaos. It is invariably claimed in discussions of Chinese culture and values that "the Occident" is characterized by rampant individualism and that the "Orient" is collectivist and in this sense morally superior in its social order. But in fact it is the other way around: the constructs of Chinese society through the ages have bound and limited the citizen and individual so closely that the opportunity to be a moral actor is heavily circumscribed; whereas the occidental tradition has through a bitter dialectic (of success ... and bitter failure) carved out a large space for the individual regulated by a web of laws and conventions which are largely consistent, able to adapt, and subject to criticism and repair. And it is this self-same dynamic which the Occident has struggled long and hard with--the universal human quest for authentic and free action--that in fact fuels and animates the rampant, feckless and unpleasant examples of excessive individualiam that seem to flourish in most corners of a China (and in Chinese states like Singapore) where propserity rises and within a politics where rules bend or disappear or change at whim. Kitto alludes to some in his piece. [It is noteworthy that with advances in prenatal medicine Singapore now manifests the exact-same sex imbalance that China is cursed with, and that sex delineation is to be banned in Canada as the infux of Chinese has led to a stark rise in sex selection among pregnancies. What is this practice if not "prisonerhood of history", "the Big Man culture", and a "rampant and excessive individualism" and a consumerism of the most banal kind?] The Chinese soul (writ large) is poorly tempered to the price and prize of freedom--and this is the crisis at the heart of China's inevitable rise; and the challenge that hundreds of millions of ordinary and thoughful Chinese (including its netizens) grapple with every day in the search for meaning and happiness in life.
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Christine
January 4, 2013 at 17:12
The author wants to return to a country where people have freedom of choice and the right to own their own home, to receive a decent living wage and to have a government that knows how to govern. He wants a good all round education for his children, none of that cramming for exams stuff, no more 'pass or your are done for'. Oh dear, he has been away from Britain for a long time. Is anyone going to tell him what it's like for the majority of ordinary Brits living in Britain these days? I hope he's saved at least £54k for his children's university fees, and a similar amount for their board and lodging while they study. And he'd better have at least £300k saved to buy himself a house - oh, and a job to come to.
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KopyKatKiller
January 6, 2013 at 05:41
The article is complete! In search of Mark Kitto: Journey to Moganshan http://www.sinolicious.com/2013/01/05/in-search-of-mark-kitto/
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Snoopy Jnr
January 7, 2013 at 04:37
There cannot be a united 'Chinese' nation under the CCP and it will go the way of Yugoslavia and USSR. Only a nation build on freedom and respect for human rights will last a long time. The diverse nature of China societies can be managed like how the USA did after the its civil war, recognition that association of states must be free. Still not too late though. However, it will need a bold, visionary leader to lead the transformation and among the first steps would be to give independence to the Tibetans and the Uighurs. Treating them as ethnic Chinese is like England colonizing Ireland and calling them ethnic English.,
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Suzhou Plum
January 10, 2013 at 13:58
Very fascinating essay. Heavy, and provoking one’s thinking about China in a profoundly deep level. Mark's utterance did not merely depict an epitome of the fate of a foreigner who tried or is still trying to make a living in China - excluding those rich or powerful corporate brats, or the well connected like Neil Heywood (before being murdered) , it is also a very comprehensive summary of what I’ve experienced, observed, and self dissected on why I, a native Chinese who repatriated to China after living overseas for more than a decade, could not feel being totally a Chinese again for the last 7+ years in China. The difference between mine and Mark’s realisation is that my epiphany came a lot earlier that I would have to leave China sooner or later, that I would never be a Chinese again once I had accepted many ideas from the West. In fact, it is insatiable for one to maintain her/his ingrained beliefs and ideas, and yet to understand, accept and fit into a foreign country like China, which their opening to the world is ostensibly economical, while other aspects are just its by-products. At least for me, I don’t even have such a luxurious desire. The problem for me, or anyone with any association to China, by nationality, language, or pure interest, China will always be in the back of our mind to revisit someday again, and again… an inescapable reality of a love and hate relationship.
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Aleanor
January 12, 2013 at 01:05
LOL. So sorry but I think the debate has truly taken a turn for the hilarious. The differences in opinion is obviously deeply ingrained in both parties stubbornly skewed to their own experiences and what they "know". Surely personal attacks are unnecessary? Anyway I just wanted to say that I can relate to the "Insider" vs "Outsider" regime. And the irony is that both my paternal grandparents hail from China whilst my maternal great grandparents also come from China. In other words I am of direct Chinese descent. I remember my Lao shi used to frequently Emphasise that I am not Chinese. And the non-Chinese descents are complaining? ;)
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Jiajun
January 14, 2013 at 11:31
Very interesting input. Mark's view point about the 'inwardness' of the Chinese culture exactly overlaps with what one of my professor, who had lived in both China and Japan, believes. Not a coincidence I think, that if a culturally sensitive and intelligent 'outsider' who spend enough years living in China will come to a conclusion about the fundamental inward and arrogant attitude towards other cultures that're so embedded within the Confucius culture. The philosophical and political ideology of 'land under heaven (tianxia)' is the core of our culture. Deep in the Chinese minds there'd be no other countries or races that are qualified to be abreast of the 'heavenly kingdom'. the world as we understand is always hierarchical. A hierarchy with the Middle Kingdom sitting in the core of the circle surrounded by the rest of the barbarian tribes from all quarters. I see no trend or whatsoever, at least in the philosophical front, that the Chinese will attempt to change such an attitude. Yet until we're able to fundamentally adapt our philosophical believes to a more universal and equal attitude towards other cultures and races, the saying or the pursue of 'China leading the world' is, as I believe, in vain. (FYI. I'm Chinese national who had lived and studied in western countries and Japan)
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Shinubi
January 15, 2013 at 11:43
We talk like there is one Chinese race. There are 56, the huge majority Han plus they other 55 and several unrecognized. Some nation, huh? Especially 20 million of them want to go their own way, viz., Tibetan and Uighur..but have been prevented by force from doing so.
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Jon
January 19, 2013 at 21:25
You will never be Chinese. Well, never say never. Or maybe that is being foolishly optimistic. I was on the plane leaving England to return to China and there was some kind of Chinese official on the plane who said to me China will never become American, I felt like laughing, I mean it is too late, it has already started to happen, on a material level though. The thing is, it isn't being American as I understand and that " American" thing is just freedom. To have the choice,the freedom of choice, to have the quality, good standard of living and of course a whole lot more. I think no matter what country or political system I think we all want freedom and dare I say peace. I think people genuinely dont want the us and them situation. But the Chinese government feels it must keep a strong grip on its people otherwise rebellion will raise its ugly head again. That is why I guess it feels justified to brainwash and lie to its people. Maybe it thinks it is the only way to keep order. Fear has caused so many of the problems that have arisen in every country, every government not only China. Until the us and them thinking drops, until boarders and passports are dropped this will carry on ad infinitum.
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Shinubi
January 22, 2013 at 01:09
Of course, they will never become American. They are a communist state with a hypocritical ideology, oppression and occupying large chunks of territory whose people do not want them there. I would like to see the Tibetan and Uighurs free.
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john
January 27, 2013 at 17:29
Actually, when you talk about chinese referring to "outsiders" (Wai guo ren?, you've got it wrong. The literal translation is "people from outside the country". It makes very big difference in the way you have intepereted it. Also, I think you have it better. Chinese people in Western countries have it worse than your experiences.
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Daniel Paradis
January 28, 2013 at 19:26
"Once you’ve purchased the necessary baubles, you’ll want to invest the rest somewhere safe, preferably with a decent return—all the more important because one day you will have to pay your own medical bills and pension, besides overseas school and college fees. But there is nowhere to put it except into property or under the mattress." There is always gold. I hear that the Chinese government encourages their citizen to buy gold.
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Phil
January 29, 2013 at 01:56
"China has lost its moral compass" a dear physician friend of mine from Shenzhen said to me repeatedly during our many wide ranging discussions over the memorable meals we shared there. The rise of selfishness is everywhere to see, and its intensity is growing as existential anxieties rip through its citizenry, spread by Weibo in a flash. This article is very complete and prescient; it underscores my own experiences living there (I've escaped) and I fear for the future of my many wonderful Chinese friends. Their inner beauty is being scarred by the erosive experience they are living every day. Sadly, with so many involved, it will very likely be that "sudden event" the author refers to that will occur, and soon, which will affect the future of not just China, not just Asia, but that of the world. And it is very likely that it will do so in a catastrophic manner. Imagine the potential for superpower confrontation that is increasing everyday with Japanese F16's occupying the same airspace as Chinese faux Mig 29's over the disputed Islands (you pick their name). They each have intense macho self regard promoted by their Governments and culture, combined with the absolute cultural requirement for the saving of face! And neither of their military leaderships contains ANY Generals who have had combat experience! What a recipe for disaster...and if the Americans can't get climbdown, it will only continue to get more dangerous. We must all pray for China.
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Rachel
January 29, 2013 at 13:37
If the westerners find China is not their cup of tea, why bother to come to China. Better of go somewhere which you feel comfortable. I find of many negative comments coming from weaterners complianing about their stay in China. I have lived in London for 15 years, very frankly, the anglo saxons are snoobish and arrogant especially those living in the beautiful countryside. They even reluctant to accept me into their anglican church. Anyway, I have to be home in the Far East, preaching the word of God and saving souls. Please look at your own kind before attempting to criticise and condemn others. God bless China and the Chinese. Hallelujah!
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Daniel
January 30, 2013 at 13:49
I was watching a talk show on Chinese television. One of the guest was a young American. He was demonstrating his ability to speak mandarin. He was great and the audience was impressed. People were applauding. Then the host made a comment similar to "We don't need foreigners to take our jobs". The audience was applauding with more energy and laughing. The young American kept smiling. In USA / Canada such a comment would sign the end of career for the host. In China it makes him more popular.
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CT
January 31, 2013 at 04:11
While I understand how he feels, I think his real frustration lies is the difficulty of doing business in China. There's pretty much no rules and the government can also get in the way. Business is ruthless over there, but it's not really related to him being a foreigner. It's just when you make money, business partners and even the government want to take it from you. The same thing happens to the Chinese themselves. In terms of just everyday living, it's not a problem at all in terms of being accepted, making friends, etc.
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Phil
January 31, 2013 at 21:33
All of us commenting would like to "nail" the issue with some tour de force statement, but we are dealing with the human condition as it plays out in different cultures, and so I believe such a summing up is impossible. My personal experiences in China ranged from the sublime to the truly frightening, but that's not to say many other countries on earth couldn't have offered up the same range. What I remember the most from living there in recent times are the many wonderful people whom I met. They give me hope that China will expand its extremely rapid development to include all fronts, especially human rights and transparent and fair government, and at all levels within their society. That will result in their becoming a trusted global partner in our combined efforts to improve the world. This is the same hope I have for the United States, UK, and all other nations, including my own Canada, that we continue our evolution in all areas too. While we Westerners have made great strides over the past several centuries, we can't just look down our noses at the Chinese simply because their path and timing is different than ours. With some patient understanding of one another, hopefully we can all make the necessary adjustments and contributions needed to live in harmony and fulfillment. May God bless us all and help us to towards that goal.
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Oliver L.
February 1, 2013 at 18:24
The author makes some good points but there are some real weak points in his arguments, e.g.: "Believing themselves to be unique, the Chinese find it almost impossible to empathise." Much of Western colonial history has been driven by the opposite--a faux universalism or a projection by Westerners that everyone else is really the same as them deep down, often with horrific consequences. "Controlled by people with conflicting interests, China’s government struggles to be decisive in domestic issues, let alone foreign ones." Every government is driven by parties with conflicting interests, even ones as seemingly totalitarian and uniform as Hitler's or Stalin's. "And the system is designed to make avoidance of responsibility a prerequisite before any major decision is taken." Is the West doing any better in terms of dealing with the protracted financial/economic crisis of the past few years? As the prime minister of Luxembourg said recently, they all know how to solve the problem(s) they just don't know how to do it and get reelected.
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Simon Lice
February 6, 2013 at 03:19
The only thing China beats us in is labor. They have communist slave labor. We can even compete with that; it is just that we have been sold out by narrow minded greedy people that do not really know how to compete; they just see cheap labor and know we do not have it here. I do know how to beat the Asians not just China by using different materials and sacrifice with more labor but we can beat them. Believe that. I see others on to my ideas on certain products that we can make and sell cheaper with higher quality and even a better price. China and other nations do alot of things cheap and do have some good products but it is a hit or miss to purchase quality all the time from them. When they catch on to quality it will do us in.
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Waigoren
February 9, 2013 at 21:32
I have not seen china as much as the author saw, It has become a place for foreigners for short stay and work. I was born in wrong timing and that affected me. Global financial crisis during oppurtunistic time and very different system in my own country took me years and years of research now i came to a conclusion that we have to know law, system and family... To balance these three in modern time where oppurtunity is awesome in rest of emerging world is very difficult. Future is India and better get ready to learn more about Indian regulation that is required for foreigners. I will write a book about it in future.
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Max
February 17, 2013 at 00:25
Why do you need to be a "Chinese" to live your life in China? They can accept you and your difference as a none Chinese, but you just cannot accept the way they accepted you is different from what you wanted? There is always someone trying to educate the Chinese to accept the difference that are brought from overseas, and they just cannot (or doesn't want to) accept the term acceptance itself is different from culture to culture. I never felt flattered (actually a bit offended) when the locals call me a Kiwi or Aussie (the 2 countries I have experienced), yes I am a hater that I cannot even take positive comments, it was proved when I said I am just an ordinary overseas Chinese blended in, I was then told the ordinary Chinese are not suppose to be like this and that blah blah so I have to be local to be as good as a local. I am a Chinese and I would like to live (not just travel to) in another country when it happens to experience the differences in life and people, I blend in, I make friends, I live a good life, and I do try to localize myself only because I am not one. I would like to be seen as a foreigner to has the attitude and skills to be welcomed, and I don't have to changing my identity every time I move. I never ask the locals to agree with me though because I know there is certainly differences in between, certainly I am not educating you what to do in another country, because I am glad that we are different.
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Jubb3500
February 23, 2013 at 21:46
This is a great article in many ways. Well thought out and very true from what I've seen. However this particular comment by the writer struck me as entirely and inadvertently, ironi— "Once you’ve purchased the necessary baubles, you’ll want to invest the rest somewhere safe, preferably with a decent return—all the more important because one day you will have to pay your own medical bills and pension, besides overseas school and college fees. But there is nowhere to put it except into property or under the mattress. The stock markets are rigged, the banks operate in a way that is non-commercial, and the yuan is still strictly non-convertible." Gee, this situation sounds just like the good 'ol free market U.S. of A. and our entirely rigged stock "market" and provenly venal and corrupt banks. And if you don't have medical insurance or a pension from your job in America (increasingly hard to come by these days) when you "retire" you are pretty much on your own aside from a miniscule social security stipend. Please explain why our system of investment in America is any better or different then China's?
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AlexCritique
March 5, 2013 at 14:39
Kitto's political critiques are mostly on-point, but problematic is the ethnic undertone embedded in his narrative. The undertone, summarized by the title itself, seem to suggest that the political problems are ethnic, which is, again, questionable. Modern English puts me at a disadvantage - if the word for my nationality is coincidental with the word for my perceived ethnic origins, then political critique can always be abusively doubled over for an ethnic smear, which is what I think is happening here. How reliable is his account, really, when he can enjoy repeated business success in such a corrupt place, recount its corruption, and leave himself almost spotless in the narrative? And to put his discursive authority into question, I've lived in US/Canada for the same number of years he lived in China (did he say 16?). But it would be funny, wouldn't it, if everyone took my social critique as total fact without asking back. Plus, the mode-of-address in his title is interesting to think about - who are the "you" that he has in mind? (He isn't addressing me, surely.) If you buy into the insinuation, that being Chinese is being corrupt, and that you'll never be corrupt, well, best of luck - everyone can use some.
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greg parker
March 7, 2013 at 16:50
Read it. Agree with. Its not negative, its reality. Not negative at all. Great article.
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Ralf
April 2, 2013 at 19:06
I understand Mark Kittos. I lived in China for 20 years. 8 of which on the mainland. There is no such thinh as THE Chinese. Just as there is not THE American. Americans see themselves often as the most friendly, and easy to call anyone a friend. But in the news and the movies you see most Americans shooting each other. I have made some Chinese friends, most of the friends I made in China are Chinese, and most of them emigrated. I just visited one of those who stayed. I miss my friends, and the food, and the general atmosphere, not so much the rich shopping centers that provide no more cover in heavy rain, more the old buildings where the firstfloor reaches over the sidewalk. There are so many things and emotions. But I hate crossing the border into China, and when I watch the news I want to see news and not grazing horses. And I don't want to be asked at the border: did you buy books abroad? I didn't mind walking home through big Chinese cities at night. Wouldn't dare to do that in Europe. And then, Mark Kitto was privileged with a multi-million dollar business in a restricted business sector, and then still could buy a house near Shanghai and build more houses and found another business. He is rich.
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haphan90
April 7, 2013 at 02:41
it;s the same in Vietnam, if you replace " China" by "Vietnam", nothing diffirent
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passerby
April 22, 2013 at 07:21
Sorry, could not finish reading this after ''Modern day mainland Chinese society is focused on one object: money and the acquisition thereof. '' I've been living in the West for the last 11 years and can same the sameabout it. People here work to pay their bills and gample in in hope to get rich one day.
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Alex Haych
April 23, 2013 at 05:04
You'll never be Chinese Written by a white dude seems about right lol
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Nobody
April 23, 2013 at 09:10
Happened to read this long article and the long long comments... Don't you think some people are just as brainwashed as the Chinese? I just think maybe it is too soon for Mr. Kitto to leave China after only a few years spent in this country. Immigrant will find it hard to be part of the local community and even harder if they are in China probably because of starkly different mindsets and backgrounds.
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Dave
April 23, 2013 at 17:03
No one discusses how to improve the misunderstandings between parties involved. Openly talking about differences and the sources of those differences is a great place to start a discussion and I've done it. A key fact is that it takes two to have this discussion and when closed-minded people are involved, it gets ugly, because they don't want to change (or can't ) or challenge their belief system. Some people find it very weird to look at their beliefs with the objective of understanding the origins of those beliefs. These ideas are at the root of most of the cross-cultural problems that exist today in my humble opinion. Some are trained not to be open minded to fend-off and protect a beliefs that are indefensible, such as religious beliefs - your faith-based reality is not my reality. Until people learn to relax and lighten-up, the world is doomed. I think in the case of Chinese and "outsiders" it gets down to people being too lazy to question their view and mindset AND to talk about them. Until people are ready question their beliefs, we are all doomed. Can you teach an old dog new tricks? In theory it is possible, but the reality is altogether different.
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A Hong Kong Citizen (not Chinese)
May 8, 2013 at 06:16
As a Hong Kong born citizen, I should tell that there are bunch of mainland immigrants who were teenagers when they came to Hong Kong. They feel ashamed of their nationality and try to claim they grow up in Hong Kong and are Hong Kong citizens to hide the fact that they were originally born in mainland China. They disguise as a Hong Kong born citizen and make claims such as Hong Kong do not welcome british or any westerners. These claims are completely false. Hope that westerners understand that Hong Kong is in a chaos of identity recognition. just be cautious when you find anyone who claim he is a Hong Kong citizen comments aggressively towards westerners.
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Dave
May 9, 2013 at 14:28
To: A Hong Kong Citizen (not Chinese) This is an interesting post. You point-out that mainlanders are not the same as native-born Hong Kongese and that maybe they are a bad influence in some respects when they project their opinion. It seems to me that an opinion has value, but not as an objective verifiable fact of life (my wife is Chinese and I love her dearly, but she presents every opinion as a fact and struggles to accept that her opinions are subject to criticism and evaluation). Anyway, you present a "balancing weight" in the minds of those looking at Hong Kong and the way people there treat "outsiders". It's funny that mainland Chinese would ever presume to represent Hong Kong!
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Peter
June 2, 2013 at 08:22
Really a good thing to talk about all of that. Not sure this is taking us anywhere. Why would you be Chinese in the first place? If this is not the place where you were born, grew up and with all due respect to those that avoid the use of the word "race", you won't be able to merge with the local population for your striking different appearances? Do you believe that China is ready for multiculturalism? How do you expect to be treated by the local people in China? No matter how well you speak Chinese or know Chinese traditions, you won't belong there. What's the problem? I am happy and proud of my origins, what's wrong with that? Do I want to be treated like any other Chinese person? Nope. I prefer to be a laowai and have the little privileges laowai enjoy here. How do I feel about life in China? The way I see it there are pros and cons. It is a developing country, ruled by an oligarchy which doesn't allow any actual freedom either of speech, religion or intellectual. That is a fact and whoever denies it is paid by the government or it is the product of 60 years of dominion of such oligarch. I worked in a Chinese newspaper and I know lots of journalists and reporters, it's all covered up and photoshopped. The truth can only be partially announced once is inevitable. Like it was for when SARS reached Beijing and the official reports were announcing tens of cases, while there were hundreds of them and the press had to follow the drop the last "0" at the end of the figure. It's quite sad, and as a foreigner if you cannot accept that, you should leave, because there is no way things will go differently here until the next oligarchy or another government will govern the country. Most Chinese people are nice people, but lack in manners and are rude. There is very little concern for hygiene and sanitation. There is no or very little quality control. Corruption is spread at all levels and is deeply rooted in the culture as well, so it will be hard to fight it. Education is standardized and meant to form people who will not question authorities and develop critical thinking or creativity. And again, if you are a foreigner and you cannot accept to live here and be part of this, then you'd better leave. Don't really want to try to alter my feature and pretend to be Chinese. Do you want to change China? ahahahahah there's over a billion who don't want to change. Drop it. Life in the city in China is safe, and there are plenty of opportunities, but you'll have to put up with air and water pollution, and crowds of just-trying-to-get-this-day-done-people all over. The smart Chinese have left, and they enjoy being not there, however homesick they may feel. Those ones that have not left or have returned, good luck to them. Good luck to you too my friend and good luck to us all. Peace!
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Dadong
June 3, 2013 at 14:33
One thing in life that's guaranteed - there are self-centered money grubbers everywhere in the world. In the end, on their deathbeds, the final thought will be "I wish I made more money,worked harder and spent less time with my kids", oh, yeah,"I wish I drank more booze and smoked a few hundred thousand more cigarettes".
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Daniel
June 10, 2013 at 04:49
I lived in Beijing as an American. First excellent, excellent article my friend. I have to give you major kudos for writing this well thought out and introspective post. The way I see it. After Deng XiaoPing's (whom I admire for his reforms) proclamation that all that is wealthy is good, it seems the focus is on very myopic viewpoints since China did not develop like the "Rule of Law" Anglo Saxons and the Roman Republic before Ceasar.... You see The West has always had a leg up on individual freedom and personal liberty because we have things like the Magna Carta and tribal Germans who have always had a sense of freedom since Ancient Rome. Thank God for Greece and the Roman advancement of the Greek idea of democracy. The Rule of Law and formal systems of the Republic mixed with the experiment called America is the culmination of external enlightenment. Whereas China segregated herself and locked herself from the rest of the world minus a few moments such as the Silk Road and Zheng He's massive ship expeditions, China has had very little opportunities to develop a proper Rule of Law, individual liberty, religious freedom, and civil society. Had we not had those men inspired by universal rights, that of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, the world would indeed be speaking German and Japanese right now. I think we in the west take our Judeo-Christian norms, customs, and heritage for granted. It is only common-sense that a truly free functioning capitalistic system of rewarding hard work, innovation, entrepreneurialism, honesty, intellect, and reciprocal trust, is the result of our judeo-christian norms and past. As much as many in the west are willing to deride our heritage and past in the name of pseudo equality, you have to give credence to what it has produced. That of fairness, the opportunity to become the next Bill Gates to meticulously work on an idea out of the garage of his home with post-pubescent computer geeks into a $300 Billion Market Cap company. I am not chiding China for her inclusiveness nor am I ridiculing her prima-facie communist party members intertwined in a society influenced by confucian values of duty and obedience; rather I am calling for an understanding of our idea of "freedom" and where is came from. If China is to understand one thing it is that Christians in her homeland are not there to destroy her country but they are generally the ones who will render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's. They are not there to destroy but to live a life devoted to God. It is the Muslims who blow up buses in Urumqi and the Buddhist who burn down government buildings in Tibet. According to Niall Ferguson of Harvard, it is the Protestant work ethic that is the most important "killer app" of the West and why it has cemented itself among the most developed societies both socially and economically. I know the meltdown will happen in China eventually. It is only a matter of time that the ghost cities built to boost GDP and feign the HSBC manufacturing index before the market catches up to the disequilibrium, as the author here duly and precociously notes. You can not have a fully functioning, vibrant society without a moral guiding compass. The state's promotion of no religion or of atheist ideals thereof will lead to people gravitating toward the darker sides of capitalism's attributes, mostly the ability to allow money to become your God and to focus less on relationships and people. Capitalism only truly works with a well-rounded, holistic approach and balance of society, environment, and economy; the alternatives never work.
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1. jixiang
  January 25, 2015 at 06:11
  There is a lot I could answer to your comment, but characterizing Buddhists as somehow intrinsically "violent" because they burn down government buildings in Tibet, as opposed to intrinsically peaceful Christians, is pretty absurd. Christians have historically been responsible for much violence and oppression in the name of their religion. Buddhists much less so (although they are not blameless), and their religion emphatically does not preach violence. Apart from that, Japan and South Korea have been able to build pretty vibrant societies with a decent rule of law, without all becoming Christians.
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mico
June 11, 2013 at 13:19
"Nationalism is the measles of civilization.'” Einstein
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TomInShanghai
June 15, 2013 at 08:34
laowai is a laowai is a laowai - you'll always be an outsider.
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Carl
June 15, 2013 at 12:02
It would be great if you could actually read the article without all the Prospect stuff on the left covering a lot of the article.
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Jimmy Li
June 15, 2013 at 19:21
Out of so many topics Kitto has mentioned in his long article which would lead to endless arguments, Education in China is something much clearer, I would say. It is not education at all out there in China. It is a production line of winner and loser. The worst is it is a brain-washed factory where most of the common values for human being are twisted or even up-side down. The Party has even destroyed totally the traditional Chinese cultures. The result is that Chinese from China-mainland do not behave like those people from Hongkong Taiwan who have maintained the Chinese tradition. Run away from China, simply because out there the air, the water, the food are polluted. The root reason for all these pollution is the heart of the people who are totally twisted by The Party who ruled the country and has shown to the people how to be bad to gain benefits! This is what a person with normal senses would say and do, regardless his or her nationality !
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jimmy
June 16, 2013 at 06:05
Good Riddance.
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bob
June 16, 2013 at 09:42
Yawn..... He considers himself an 'expert' on China, writing numerous articles... but seems to be bitter that he failed to grasp the reality that is China...... So chalk up another foreigner who failed to negotiate the China 'learning curve' . who thinks because they have mastered the ability say 'Ni Hao' China somehow owes them a living.....
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Henry Law
June 16, 2013 at 15:59
Generally Agree. But few points I want to make: 1. The problem in today's world is that nowhere is actually good enough to live in. I fully agree what the author says, it is not much better here in Hong Kong, being totally overrun by mainland Chinese happily buying up and skyrocket prices of things from basic everyday needs to real estate all because of the CCP-generated troubles, while at the same time they see Hong Kong as an ideological rival and an anti-China bridgehead for having institutions that made Hong Kong unique. 2. Sadly however, I don't seem to see expatriates relocating back to Europe or the United States as a good choice either, with enormous debts hanging over them that could descend their economies into another wave potential financial crisis at unseen magnitude when no one trusts the USD/Euro anymore. (unless you’re a lucky Canadian/Australian) The deeper problem the West is facing, is the social contract not just between classes, but through generations across the West has been breached seriously - a rightward shift is beginning among people at my age as I observe (1-2 years after being fresh uni graduates), quite many are upset of how their irresponsible seniors are leaving them huge debts for them to pay off, and if those old naïve liberals still don't say goodbye to their radical visions, voices that are still not taken seriously would just make young people ever more of radical rights. God bless if 20th century history repeats. 3. We should not simply think that Western (or should I say universal) values can never be fitted in mainland China, whether people say it for easily restoring Western predominance or whatever reasons. It is the institutions that matter the most, if deep cultural traits did, then West Germany and East Germany should had stayed the same economically and socially during the Cold War. If Communism was an idea newer than universal suffrage could yield more successfully in most parts of the world (at least for a period), why not universal suffrage itself? Taiwan is already a full blown democracy. Elections still look childish to me time to time. People on the mainland can certainly shout Taiwan is ‘fake democracy’, but it is improving and maturing fast. 4. Nor did the Western world had much more optimism less than one or two centuries ago, take a read of Charles Dickens' 'Bleak House'. Even by 1920's, publications could still be banned in England, another example includes 'Lady Chatterley's Lover' by DH Lawrence. Democracy, free speech, human rights, private property rights and other freedoms that are fundamental in addressing problems in China today are luxuries people in the West and parts of Asia are entitled to, but those could only be achieved by having a more effective legal establishment, something the West has always had an edge over China at any point in modern time, also something that Hong Kongers must stand for if it is to remain civil and superior in institutional terms.
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Your children will be Chinese
June 16, 2013 at 17:24
Its true that you will never be Chinese no matter how hard you tried. But your children will be Chinese forever. Their tiger mom will make sure they will get to OxCam and practice enough calligraphy. Their Chinese heritage will dominate their life for generations to come.
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Eric
June 16, 2013 at 17:41
There's a Russian saying "People deserve their government".
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Lee Deforest
June 17, 2013 at 06:01
You'll never be Chinese ironically elicits a "me culture" perspective... government response to cyclone Katrina shows that African Americans after so many generations are not equal... and they were enslaved by the Caucasian which is a very different history to the British Opium Wars and Japanese invasion. Seriously with the British Government paying in contraband, and Japanese Unit 731 torturing millions of Chinese... I am mortified at the empathy demanded but hypocritical complete lack of empathy demonstrated by this entrepreneur - a very poor ambassador indeed The criticisms of China are insightful but very unbalanced... as the GFC elicits the Western democratic model is financially unstable, across all democracies, and 1% of the population own 50% of the wealth... democratic triumph is best elicited in the USA has more homeless, more homicides, and less health care than you possibly image The primary ingredient of any social system is integrity; the Aussies have moaned infrastructure development of a new country hampered economic development (unlike Greece), the Aussies have moaned trade distances and isolation hampered economic development (unlike Greece), the Aussies have moaned modest tourism (unlike Greece) but the quality of life consequent to low corruption made it a paradise... in view of the quasi-slavery wealth distribution in democracies I think the intelligentsia of China provides the world with best hope for a more equitable society
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Steven Ng
June 17, 2013 at 06:19
China is not suitable for ordinary citizens to live in. Posionous air, food, serious moral crisys. Lay an embargo on free speech, no people right. what's the chinese dream? As a chinese, I give you answer: NIGHTMARE
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Jackson
June 17, 2013 at 09:05
I am a native Chinese,and my english is not good,but i hope you can understand. first, i understand how hard for Mr.Kitto to have been through these years in China, because the same with all the Chinese did. We dont live as good as you can imagine we are so that we would claim more for political demand. Life is so hard in China,that is what the Party exactly wanted so that you have to earn your living instead of asking for political demands. 2nd, i have to admit Chinese elites have a non-saying pride that is we dont need to believe in God or anything about God's, of cause the universalism with God. God is conflict to our culture. 3rd, Chinese are good at obey. i am not saying that we are servilism,not exactly. China has so many people, fiercely individual competition,we must protect ourselves under the circumstance without any law can protect us. Because we always believe that law would not punish people or crowd. So we follow but never be unique.You may say we are slaves, if you say so,we are and always will be without law protecting.
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1. jixiang
  January 21, 2015 at 04:47
  Thank god there are Chinese like you who can think for themselves. Congrats!
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Jamie
June 17, 2013 at 13:04
Jackson; instead of saying non saying say tacit. Yours English is very good. Chinese police will punish the crowd. Like in Tiannamen Square.
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Ray
June 17, 2013 at 15:59
Sorry to be a Chinese, I am born to be a Chinese, but not a slave of Marxism. Mark, you must be crazy to try to be a Chinese while almost every rich Chinese wants to get green card from US.
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Lee Deforest
June 17, 2013 at 17:03
Daniel The point being that racial divides are problematic that can persist for thousands of years so the expectation of not being treated like an outsider is unrealistic. Regarding cyclone Katrina refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_government_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina#Race_as_a_factor_in_the_slow_response
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Lee Deforest
June 17, 2013 at 17:12
Daniel I don't remember where I read the OECD, Western, or whatever statistics... however in 2010 for the USA 1% of the citizens owned 37% of the wealth, and this figure rose dramatically with Quantitative Easing where much of the tripling of currency ended up in the hands of the wealthy. Refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth#In_the_United_States Regardless, the point being that in Western economies the erosion of the middle class by the upper class has resulted in quasi-slavery wealth distribution in democracies
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Lee Deforest
June 18, 2013 at 03:35
Daniel Your point regarding the IRS elicit the belated recognition of the problem of government debt rather than negation of bigotry or egoism. Thank you for the crime statistics showing disproportionate incidence by ethnicity as it collaborates my both my assertion of inequality and the Western quality of life for the less affluent. The British once intentionally made life for the commoner untenable financially so that they could create convicts for export to Australia - heartless social engineering, just as your statistics prove that after so many generations opportunities remain very unequal. My example was to convey the moral destitution of the system as a whole, not to focus on the bigotries of ethnicity and political persuasion. Once again I return to my primary point where integrity. Also thank you for the point about Christians and governments wanting to garner more power as this too collaborates my point. And slavery?... with about 50% of the wealth owned by 1% it would be more like 70% if the money wasn't expended on consumption of leer jets etc. These is much to learn about democracy from Greece, the origin of the concept... Greece is awash with money, but the government and its people are destitute...democracy has decayed into quasi-slavery Look to activism in Europe as an indication of the urgency of the need for reform - the status quo of democracy is understandably creating grass roots disbelief. And I take my hat off to Bernanke who by tripling currency has maximized economic activity, however it is not creating prosperity as the long-term effect of tripling currency is to cut wages as a share of the economy to one third of the share which is why you see corporate health at the moment. Quantitative Easing however has a diminishing return on investment and the benefits are tapering off regardless of Federal Reserve policy. The American Dream has been extended with the help of the psychotic drugs of debt and QE, but the dream is about to end
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Lee Deforest
June 19, 2013 at 02:28
Hi Daniel I seek collaborative sharing of knowledge for mutual benefit, and subsequently prefer to read than to write as it is when I read that I learn. You have written so much but I gained so little... like I said "it is incredibly easy to convince people of what they want to believe and near impossible to convince them of what they don’t want to believe". The status quo of democracy is unworkable you'd have to be blind not to see that Also, for your information my lineage is British and Texan... which is why I am so concerned
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Lee Deforest
June 19, 2013 at 04:34
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Annual_Trend_in_Euromoney_Country_Risk,_March_2000_-_March_2011.svg
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Lee Deforest
June 21, 2013 at 04:29
Yeah there are problem in China, just as there are everywhere else.... Risk Trend however elicits the final scoreboard
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dryshrimp
June 21, 2013 at 21:18
Being Chinese and living in China are two different things. Chinese is a culture, there exists a large variety of Chinese. Wanting to leave China means Mark has already become one (major) variant of Chinese.
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Paul Tsui
June 22, 2013 at 00:33
"special schools for the Party privileged"? That sounds to me like a thing of the past. The kids of the party privileged may still have a better chance ending up in good schools than the kids of the laborers but those schools are not "for the Party privileged", it seems to me. Rather they are for the real smart kids(through entrance exams), the rich and those in power or with connections who can somehow squeeze their kids in.
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Robert in Shanghai
June 23, 2013 at 04:56
I have warned every Chinese I know who owns their properties to sell now, and rent for a few years. That a crash is impending. None will lose face to put themselves or their parents in a rented apartment after already owning. The fear of losing face is more then the fear of losing wealth.
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Lee Deforest
June 24, 2013 at 11:04
The phenomenal success of state capitalism in China has enabled outstanding GDP growth - trauma consequent to structural upheaval and growth pains however are likely to be very severe, taint the "Miracle of China", and cause enormous political stress... Can democracies overcome the systemic spending-taxing flaw to remain competitive in the face of Chinese reform to eliminate corruption and inefficiencies? http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/16/opinion/why-chinas-political-model-is-superior.html?_r=0
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Lee Deforest
June 24, 2013 at 12:47
"One dollar one vote" (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/opinion/sunday/kristof-occupy-the-agenda.html) is a primary contributor to the spending-taxing failing symptom of the failing model of democracy as a viable enduring model of governance
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He shuqi
July 2, 2013 at 23:12
Hello, I am a Chinese ordinary university student, I'm sorry we Chinese is not good enough, let you down. But I hope you can give me a chance to speak, thank you. First of all, as you describe that many phenomena in our country and some of your point of view I agree, from the bottom of my heart is also very admire your keen awareness and critical ability. But I am not feel shame as I grew up in such a country . On the contrary, I think you narrow-minded, thinking negative, short-sighted.Of course,I think I have my according to, otherwise there is accused of defamation. Sleeping for hundreds of years the Chinese nation, nowadays, our country each domain development speed. There is no doubt, we explore the development speed and direction control is difficult to manage .Therefore, social problems also is inevitable. People are selfish, of course including you. For my largely populated nation to xplorate our country system, there are some people because of the selfish and corruption is not a surprise. And you said you love China, but in addition to its high demand, require it to give you easy and comfortable material life, spiritual essence of drawing and enjoy, but that life be compelled helpless, if you had already left a sore back to China? Did you give her a little understanding, let alone together with our Chinese side by side, common to search better. In exhaust at judging our at the same time reflect on whether do you also have? Love or not, no one try so hard, but please don't in your love tired, or found themselves expect too much, just turned around and stormed out, also hurt the innocent. China's rapid development, people's life rhythm speeding up, the same as you, or so, especially the people who live in cities in order to comfortable life, their work, no time to flirt with feelings, inadvertently becomes "shallow", but who don't want to live in skin without the enemy? But, also don't think we will have members of affinity China, there is no where, don't think that our Chinese nation five thousand years of history culture and the spirit of the essence to brag yarn, if necessary, on the back of your backpack trip, go into China. Moreover, parsing, our Chinese intellectuals love gentle since ancient times, maybe become your sham hypocrisy, but at least we have don't want to hurt others' nature, yes, we to be perfect, however, since can't accommodate also can't wait, let it be. But you know how much you now don't hypocrisy patriotic heart hurt me? And, I believe that there will be thousands you hurt the heart, if they see you so not responsible for anger. Finally, we Chinese will be better and better, our compatriots feelings will be more unity mutually close, we will be more bright, the spirit of the Chinese nation civilization we will make the world a better place. You also need not guilty, to continue your journey of other countries, your Lord can disappoint you less, less hopelessness, of course, more welcome miss our great China.
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Flaure
July 3, 2013 at 19:20
maybe, but i can still learn a few Chinese lessons https://lovevonbeautyvonlove.wordpress.com/2013/05/17/my-chinese-lessons-by-gao-xingjian/
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Chien
July 23, 2013 at 23:24
Some observations are valid, but some are not. China has gone through much hardship in the past 150 years, much of own doing, and much due to Western and Japanese exploitation. It has been hard to be a Chinese, and Chinese have lost their identity, and many Chinese don't know what being a Chinese is anymore--so many become the Chinese equivalent of Uncle Tom. as often applied to blacks in America, and worshipping anything that is foreign, and denying their own culture and heritage, which the Cultural Revolution sought to do. For the past few decades, China has been stable and this has been something that Chinese society has not had for a long time, and China's economic ascendancy is reflective of such. But it is still enslaved to foreigners, and yet to find a good and noble Chinese Way. The Western yoke is internalized, and enslavement is of the mindset. The problem with many foreigners is that they are foreigners and do not have an underlying love for Chinese people, China and the Chinese Culture and Heritage--and thus they remain foreigners. They only exploit Chinese, and hold to a Western perspective, and view themselves as superior to Chinese. They take what they can and don't give back--they exploit Chinese, and the sad thing is many Chinese willingly agree to such exploitation, because they are used to it. In a family, a parent loves a child unequivocally, for good or bad, even when critical, but it is with basic underlying love and good will and interest in the well-being of the child. This is the type of love of a patriot of a country. Such is what foreigners lack; they basically do not love Chinese, only exploit and take what they can, and do not truly care about the Chinese, and that is why they "will never be Chinese." You are truly Chinese if you love Chinese and have their welfare in mind. By such, many Chinese are not Chinese either. Think Lawrence of Arabia. Foreigners like to denigrate Chinese rather than to help solve the issues. The foreign missionaries in China of the past were more noble, although had a motive, but what we have now in China are not foreign missionaries but foreign mercenaries, working along with corrupt parties for own profit.
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Eugenia Lieu
July 30, 2013 at 01:18
Other English website have been so rude to an American like me. They think a coarse-face like me is Plain, and not sophisticated. Number one, a coarse-face is only sophisticated because it is a fusion of things. Secondly, it's not something intricate, and hard to understand- It's a cut-and-paste type of a thing.
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Dee
August 19, 2013 at 20:28
Pleasae transfer to Mr. & Mrs. Kitto, with many thanks! Dear Mr. & Mrs. Kitto, Read your story, may I propose you try go to the visit the other part of China - Taiwan (Republic of China),there keeps the most traditional Chinese curtual and mentality, I am Chinese Overseas who live in Switzerland and Europe nearly 40 years, and I was born in Nanjing and educated in Taiwan, my main family relationship is in mainland China, I visited China 5-7 times yearly, believe me, I understand your feeling well, I know you love China, but ???,???. Wish you and your children and family have a good health and happiness forever! Sincerely yours Dee Suisse
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Tudo
September 8, 2013 at 02:53
Jeesh what a crybaby
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DaDong
October 9, 2013 at 13:42
trite adjective 1. (of a remark, opinion, or idea) overused and consequently of little import; lacking originality or freshness.
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Steve
October 11, 2013 at 10:22
thanks for your sincere sharing. I agree your points.From a perspective of a Chinese who have a modern world view,I think your experiences in China for years is fruitful and that makes this article so understandable&insightful. I would like to pay my sincere salute to you Sir! Best regards,
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DaDong
October 13, 2013 at 01:32
Chinese driv·el noun 1. silly nonsense. "don't talk such drivel!" synonyms: nonsense, twaddle, claptrap, balderdash, gibberish, rubbish, mumbo jumbo, garbage; More verb verb: drivel;?3rd person present: drivels;?past tense: drivelled;?past participle: drivelled;?gerund or present participle: drivelling;?past tense: driveled;?past participle: driveled;?gerund or present participle: driveling 1. talk nonsense. "he was driveling on about the glory days" synonyms: talk nonsense, talk rubbish, babble, ramble, gibber, blather, prattle, gabble, waffle More 2.archaic let saliva or mucus flow from the mouth or nose; dribble.
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DaDong
October 13, 2013 at 02:02
Wonderful creative effort for a simple mind! Your long life is assured and your luck in money matter is assured (in bed).
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Eugenia Lieu
October 31, 2013 at 20:22
Dear Prospect, As a Chinese with a coarse-jaw, a full-looking face, and a good looking smile: It was denied my jaw came from my Caucasian heritage. This was denied through the media, and its images. I know I am very different from Caucasian now. And I cannot be depicted, nor portrayed like them.
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Chen Long (Ryan)
November 7, 2013 at 06:29
I am a fellow British guy living here in Changchun (Jilin province) and have done for the past 9 years, will be 10 in February 2014. I love this country as if it was mine own and I don't think different of it since day one when I arrived. Yes its changed, and yes its changed very quickly but so what, that is life and life as well as all around us will always change and we have to live to accept that. I only wish that China could let me be a Chinese national! not because of benefits or perks etc, but because I would be proud to be known as a Chinese instead of a British guy. I will live here until the day I die and love this country also until my final days. ????
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Chien
November 7, 2013 at 19:30
Don't forget the Opium Wars and subjugation of India.
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Chien
November 8, 2013 at 03:01
@Joseph: "The naive “FREE TRADE” Westerners got their manufacturing jobs decimated with the advent of the extremely low wages paid in Chinese factories." Who is the culprit here--these "naive free trade Westerners' went to China based upon greed, to exploit the lower labor costs to boost their own profits. The Westerners partitioned China for their own interests, all except for the US. And which country is creating wars and threats of war all over the world and using gunboat diplomacy now but the US, and selling arms all over the world. What of the NSA disclosures? And the drone strikes? You have such a holier than thou Westerner attitude, it seems; casting Westerners in positive light and the Chinese government in an evil light; excusing everything of an evil nature that the Westerners did against the other peoples in the world in the past. I am not of the PRC, but ROC; and I deem what Mao did in the cultural revolution as horrendous. But China has gone in a positive direction, and the welfare of many have advanced. True that the benefits have gone to the elite in the country, those who toe the party line, but is this not so in the West as well? The standard of living has been raised for many. There are injustices, but people are not being oppressed. The illicit drug trade is not as prevalent in China as in the West. Drug dealers if caught are executed. In the US, there are 2 million in jail due to drug charges, 6 million in jail in total. Your view of China and the rest of the world seems out-dated and xenophobic. If you keep up on the weapons that the US is developing, you will come to understand that world peace is not being undermined by China, but by the US and its allies and Japan.
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Chien
November 8, 2013 at 04:41
@Joseph: You quoted me for your quote, but the wrong quote. I know a lot of Chinese, and am Chinese. Most of the Chinese in mainland China only pursue money now, not spiritual enlightenment, but there is a revival of Confucius. Awailability of education is not much the issue but mode and quality of education, but some really good schools and hundreds of thousands go to US for study, as well as to other countries. You should take a trip to China and see for yourself. Things are not perfect, and there is a lot of pollution due to industrial growth, but things are not as bad as you perceive.
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stevelaudig
December 2, 2013 at 22:26
A rather all-encompassing anti-China rant. Here's a counterpoint, Africa is what China would look like if it hadn't kicked out the imperial West. Consider the anti-West, or pro-nationalist, if you will, as merely a natural reaction to invasion, occupation, exploitation. China hasn't sent troops to Africa. China has forced the importation of opium against the will of the locals. Chinese 'imperialism' is rather benign [compared to the USG]. It builds roads in Africa rather than bombing them in Baghdad. . The West took Iraq from a second world country to a fourth world country and did the same to Afghanistan. "Yankee go home." is both a prayer and a demand. Every country has its problems and the Communist Party of China solves far more problems than the Capitalist Party [DemoRepub] in the US.
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Chien
December 2, 2013 at 23:41
Don't forget what the Japanese did in Asia up to their defeat in WW2. They raped and killed innocent villagers, massacred en masse, forced prisoners into slave labor, forced women to serve their troops, pillaged the natural resources of the lands they occupied, and conducted biological and chemical warfare experiments on Chinese. Now they are trying to re-militarize and rewrite history to whitewash their evil deeds, and casting China as the evil empire to raise fear and advance their own agenda to once again become facist and imperialistic. And US just plays along, motivated by its own fear of China eclipsing US as the dominant power, and redeploying 60% of its military to Asia when it is not even an Asian country. Plays right into Japanese agenda.
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Joe
January 7, 2014 at 05:59
Nicely written article - save the title. It's seems obvious to me that a non-chinese person will never become chinese. How many laowai in China honestly believe they'll become Chinese someday? That's the fun of being in China in the first place. Not being Chinese!
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Penney
January 24, 2014 at 17:38
Nice answer back in return of this issue with solid arguments and describing everything concerning that.
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Chien
January 28, 2014 at 22:32
"your death awaits you" is certainly a hateful ignoramous. No more comments are warranted. Can't respond to a ranting zero.
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Your death awaits you
January 29, 2014 at 00:44
It is a parody playing on the destructive theme of your government. I wouldn't expect you to understand it, typical of chinese people who can't fathom understanding irony because your brain has been inbred to only accept conformist notions of acceptance. Since Mao killed off all the intellectuals your society had bred for years, I didn't particularly expect people with brain cells to be able to comprehend logical lines of reasoning since your whole society is built around the notion of passing standardized tests that do nothing for the good of your society other than look good on paper. Is it no wonder your country can't produce any meaningful scientific literature or advances in technology despite having about 1/5 of the worlds' population? You have produced 1 Nobel Prize winner yet you are about 20% of the worlds' population. Looks as if your system results in individuals with accolades acquiescing to the desires and wishes of your slave masters who command you to do whatever their will expects of you. The only hateful [sic] ignoramus is you. The synapses inside your weak pathetic excuse of a human being are excruciatingly below what would be considered normal thoughts. You are no different than Mao's red guards who paraded around and pretended all was well. Continue to convince yourself in your weak and feeble mind that you are right because one thing is for sure, you have absolutely zero ability to comprehend and reason beyond your own self-ensuring destructive notions of pride. You are as ugly as the thoughts masquerading inside the empty spaces of your dome you call your mind. Your whole society is sick and you are just a micro-reflection of the macro. You won't understand that your government is leading you to the precipice of annihilation until it is too late and you are decrepit and old like the apologetic Song BinBing who was personally responsible for murdering countless teachers as a part of being in Mao's Red Guard. You are no different than Pre WWII Japan. The faster you can understand this, the faster your society can change for the better.
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Ric
February 1, 2014 at 18:18
Hey Chien, your relentless anti-Japanese ranting seems highly unusual. I thought that Taiwanese were friendly to Japan? Are you sure you're really Taiwanese? Seems that you've been drinking the mainland's Kool-Aid. Here's some friendly advice: Maybe you shouldn't go out of your way to defend a country that has hundreds of missiles aimed at you and considers you to be nothing more than a renegade province to be annexed, by force if necessary.
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Chien
February 1, 2014 at 21:06
@Ric: Nothing unusual. Chinese are not friendly to Japan, either on Mainland or Taiwan; we remember the horrible atrocities and insults by the Japanese. I would not be anti-Japanese ranting, as you call it, if the Japanese were like the Germans, regretful and repentant about what they did in WW2 and embrace peace, not war, as the solution. Contrast the posture of the Germans and the Japanese governments to the countries they had violated, the apologies expressed by the German government and peoples on rememberance days, versus the Japanese government under Shinzo Abe, paying homage to the shrine and glorifying their past. Look at Shinzo Abe's actions. Deliberately posing for picture of himself in the cockpit of a plane with the number 731 painting on it (#731 was the Japanese chemical/biological warfare unit in China responsible for conducting live experiments on Chinese--and others--to prepare such weapons for mass destruction). Picture in uniform on their new army tank. Launching and christianing of their carrier on August 6th. Revising textbook to whitewash their history. And all that rhetoric. Contrast that to Germany and attitude of Germans. Japan under Shinzo Abe is reverting to military imperialism, which all but the blind, or those deliberately keeping blinders on can see. Abe and his cohorts are using Chinese military threat as an excuse to re-arm. Abe is leading Japan down a dangerous path, he will destroy Japan. As one political commentator has observed, which I think is quite insightful: Abe has personal issues concerning Japan's past military imperialism, since his grandfather and father were involved, and his is hijacking the entire country for his own personal agenda. He is not concerned about the ultimate welfare of the Japanese people, and certainly not peace. -- Ric, I guess you are not up on current events with China and Taiwan, the approachment and reconciliation, the one China and global Chinese concept. The only faction that in anti-reconciliation in Taiwan are the DDP members, the anti-everything opposition group/party--which itself it gaining less support and struggling to remain relevant.
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Bai Yiming
February 2, 2014 at 00:24
Chien, for your information: You are not up-to-date concerning Taiwan: Taiwanese love all Japanese, and the majority of 22 mil people here are very sceptical concerning the PRC. Most of the free world watch Chinese expansionism with great displeasure!
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Ric
February 2, 2014 at 07:28
Oh my, oh my. Looks like you've drunk even more of the CCP Kool-Aid than I thought. No, it really is unusual. Every source I've ever read suggests that Taiwanese don't hate Japan as much as the mainlanders do. If what you're saying is true, then it means the Taiwanese are not to be trusted. In the coalition of nations forming against Chinese expansionism, you are the weak link. If you and other Taiwanese like China so much, why don't you go live there? It just seems a little dishonest that the most avid pro-China cheerleaders don't even live in the country they claim to support, you know? Many pro-China trolls on the Internet are overseas Chinese. It's just a pattern I've noticed. Do you think it's because if they actually lived in China, they wouldn't have such a rosy opinion of it? Anyway, I somewhat suspect that talking to you any further will be a waste of time, since you may already be fully indoctrinated by CCP propaganda. Suffice it to say that all your rants about Japan's supposed lack of remorse have already been rebutted and refuted countless times. It is a myth that Japan has not apologized. Japan has apologized many times. In your delusions, you seem to think that Japan is using China's military threat as an excuse to rearm. In fact it's the other way around. The CCP is using Japan as a convenient scapegoat, in order to focus the anger of the Chinese people on an external source (and therefore away from the CCP itself), and to keep the populace easy to control through nationalism. Judging by you, it seems to be working. And the Chinese military threat is very real, by the way. As the previous poster said, it is China whose military spending is increasing by double-digit percentages every year. Why is that, Chien? China is already the second-largest military spender in the world, and will probably overtake the US in a couple of decades. "Peaceful nation", my ass. Japan is merely doing what any sane nation would do, defending itself from Chinese aggression. You keep on going on about Shinzo Abe. He's just one man. Japan is a nation of 130 million people. And, despite the lies of the Chinese, the fact is that most Japanese no longer have any appetite for war. True, the far-right exists in Japan, but it is a small minority. The Japanese have learned their lesson from their defeat in WW2, that militarism does not pay off. But have the Chinese learned that lesson? It doesn't look like it. Lastly, about textbooks. What, you don't think Chinese textbooks try to portray China's invasion of Tibet as justified? Maybe those same textbooks even portray China's occupation of Vietnam as a good thing. And while you're at it, google "Northeast Project". My, it seems you Chinese really angered some Koreans with your revisionist bullcrap. Whitewashing history? You Chinese are doing the exact same thing you accuse Japan of doing. Enough with the hypocrisy.
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Chien
February 2, 2014 at 07:52
@Ric, I don't know what you are reading. There are about a million citizens of ROC Taiwan living in China most of the year, my cousin included, and going back and forth. Two way trade, and direct investment are booming, and two-way tourism is booming and travel is now direct. You are decades behind in your understanding of what is going on. You just don't understand what is going on, and don't seem to follow the news. Just seems to be an uneducated China hater.
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Ric
February 2, 2014 at 09:05
Chien, is that all you have to say to my lengthy comment? You have no rebuttal to my arguments, that's why. That's fine. I do not want to waste time with a brainwashed shill of the CCP such as you. You say I "just don't understand what's going on, and don't seem to follow the news." Actually, I read the news a lot, and I understand far more than you do. You say, "I don't know what you are reading", because you are uneducated and you don't read anything. I read the news about China's continued oppression of the Tibetan and Uighur minorities, about China's bullying in the South China Sea, about China's border incursions into Indian territory, about China's aggressive new ADIZ in the East China Sea, about Russia's concern over growing Chinese migration into Siberia. Did you even google the Northeast Project? Of course you didn't. Typical wumao troll, just looking for the "facts" that suit your warped view of the world. Anyway, the Japanese people I know, there is no militarism left in them. They are gentle and peaceful people. Whereas the Chinese...no offense, Chien, but the Chinese are some of the most arrogant, ultranationalistic people I have ever had the misfortune to meet, full of hostility and an incredible superiority complex. The Internet is full of nationalistic Chinese trolls like yourself, trumpeting your belief in China's superiority over everyone else. You know what's ironic? China today is very similar to Japan in WW2. Think about that for a moment. Anyway, like I said, Japan learned their lesson in WW2. They attempted militarism and war, and they were beaten. But China has not learned that lesson yet. But if your people continue bullying weaker countries, if you continue to act like the entire world belongs to you, you will learn it. Rest assured, Chien, you will learn it.
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Kastus
February 10, 2014 at 22:52
" Whereas the Chinese…no offense, Chien, but the Chinese are some of the most arrogant, ultranationalistic people I have ever had the misfortune to meet, full of hostility and an incredible superiority complex." Havent you ever thought that you are arrogant, brainwashed and uneducated human? That can explaine why you have such opinion about Chinese
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Ric
February 11, 2014 at 04:22
Shh, no insults, Kastus. Your insults are only the sign of your tiny pygmy brain. The reason I have "such opinion" about the Chinese is that it is true. I'm sorry that the truth offends you, Chinaman. Also, haha...are you aware that the very term "brainwash" originated in China? How's that for irony?
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Eugenia Lieu
March 8, 2014 at 17:39
What do you mean "You'll Never Be Chinese?" As a coarse-face with Chinese parentage I certainly know I am a Chinese. You White People never the same hope.
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Phil Richardson
March 8, 2014 at 19:55
Every now and again I return to read the new comments on this article, the purpose od which was to share the on the ground experiences of foreigners living in China. From what I read in the article, its a balanced and accurate portrayal of life in China and the attitudes held by the great majority of its citizens. As to the comments, I'm saddened that an opportunity for greater understanding by all concerned, of the positives and negatives of China's culture and its people's attitudes has been brushed aside by many who simply want to assert their own xenophobic points of view. I love the Chinese people, I do not love its government nor the negative effects it has had on them. Through gross mismanagement in the past, recent as well as old, it has visited terrible suffering on its people. They have become survivalists, striving to achieve prosperity for themselves and their families. While the opening of China to the world in 1988 onward was a dramatically good step to take, the impact on many of the greed which has arisen has altered many people there for the worse. Who would have imagined only thirty years ago that regulations would be needed to ensure that children visit and support their parents, for example? while affluence has risen dramatically, it has been concentrated in the hands of the few, leaving the great majority to struggle. And struggle they do in order to accumulate savings to help insulate themselves from the new impositions on their rights that they sense are coming from their government. And often the frustrations that arise from these stresses are displaced on foreigners who are conveniently blamed for them. This works for a while, but it will never help the Chinese society to improve and move forward if necessary change is resisted. These internal pressures, many exacerbated by the government through such policies as promoting China's victimhood at the hands of the local competition such as Korea and Japan, as well as the West, result in the nationalism that we see so evident today. It will not just harm Japan, it will harm China too. Does anyone still naively believe that Japan doesn't already have nuclear weapons? Why else is there an old and dangerous plutonium producing reactor in each power facility in Japan, as revealed through the Fukashima disaster? To have such beliicose nations as China, Japan and Korea within minutes of one another as the missile flies is frightening, especially as they have such an inordinate investment in preserving face? What could be worse than having conflict points such as the Islands (I've given up on learing all the names each country calls them), where trigger happy pilots are flying within hundreds of metres of one another? Everyone seems to assume China would win such a conflict, but with the triggering of the security agreements held by Japan, Taiwan and Korea with the US that would immediately follow, it would be facing a world of pain and subjugation. I say, show some sensible self control, lower the xenophobic tirades that each pitches out from time to time, and remember that governments are supposed to have the well being of their citizens as their prime reason for existence. I pray that true leaders will emerge in these countries to enable this. The present crop don't look like they're up to it.
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Chien
March 9, 2014 at 03:25
There are so many China and Chinese bashers here with prejudical viewpoints and steeped in bigotry, with whom there is no sense in discussing anything rationally--such folks have hearts filled with hatred and little minds that cannot bode alternate perspectives, nor can they understand anything beyond their straight-jacketed biases. The Chinese expression, "make a puddle and look at your own reflection" is all I can say.
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Chien
March 9, 2014 at 04:50
@Phil Richardson You are one of the few rational people commenting here. Kudos. Things are changing in China, and the government has stated its intent and is making transformation a priority, with crack down on corruption, bureaucracy, addressing issues of polution, education and bunch of other stuff. Whether succeed or not is to be seen, but at least action is being undertaken.
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Chien
March 10, 2014 at 15:51
Ho, Ho, Ho! Peace on Earth and Good Will to All Men.
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G.U.YIsComingGaga
March 22, 2014 at 16:12
You can go back anytime you want, im sure they'll welcome you
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chloe
April 16, 2014 at 11:34
Even you get the ID national, normal people also treat you as a foreigner.Because of your looking your spoken accent. One solution,you must speak mandarin without accent, or tell others you are the ethnic white Russia or other ethnic, or you should know about the 5000 years history of China which is the source of all Chinese view, like why Chinese people do not keep their king as a symbol of power,what is the table manner in detail which is just taught by parents,why Chinese do not like another country to control them even though it may be better than now,and why Chinese people treat friends better than their family members . China is never a nation of immigrants like US or Canada. So it is hard and rare to get the ID national.Even the one whose nation was China and who changed his nation will seldom have the ability to get the nation ID China back.They are regarded as Chinese because of their parentage by normal people , while they are not protected by the nation China.Reasons are complicated and numerous.Those who treat themselves as Chinese even though their nation is not China, Chinese people treat them as Chinese. Those who treat themselves not as Chinese even though their parents are Chinese.Chinese people blame them that they forget the root of ethnic.Those who are half blood are regarded as what they feel what they are.It is a pity that western people just know a little bit of other cultures, and can not understand as fairly as Chinese people do. Chinese understand western culture because they know about western language and can get the first hand documents, but they do not agree with all opinions. While seldom western can know Chinese language and can get the correct information by first hand. Some foreigners treat traditional Chinese and simplify Chinese as two different language to speak. It it very very ridiculous.Do not you think it strange that 1/5 of the population of the world are all Han Chinese?
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1. jixiang
  January 21, 2015 at 04:35
  "It is a pity that western people just know a little bit of other cultures, and can not understand as fairly as Chinese people do. Chinese understand western culture because they know about western language and can get the first hand documents, but they do not agree with all opinions. While seldom western can know Chinese language and can get the correct information by first hand." That is just such a biased, one-sided view. How many Chinese know anything about other cultures? How many Chinese even speak any foreign language to a degree high enough to understand the culture? On average the Chinese tend to be less knowledgeable about other cultures then almost anyone else on earth. What's more, Mark Kitto speaks, reads and writes in Chinese pretty well, so your words are even more misplaced. I have news for you: the Chinese language and culture are not some arcane mystery that only the Chinese can understand. They are perfectly well learnable by Westerners, and many have done so.
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alan lewis
April 20, 2014 at 01:16
By the way all of what I just wrote is true I see it everyday and to be honest I believe that these people are either blind and can't see it or don't want to. Which makes them arrogant to think it is their culture and its good. At least westerners have the courage to question and then change things
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Eugenia Lieu
July 4, 2014 at 01:42
Dear Reader, There are many Germans under this society that just won't accept me. And I know even White Americans wants to kick me out of this society. They are rather French oriented. They had always said I don't speak better English than the French as though French People still own this country. However, still some other Americans are only true Americans because they were the ones being accepted in this society at first.
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Eugenia Lieu
July 8, 2014 at 23:16
As a coarse-face, I know you can say I'm not Chinese, but I am Chinese by color, and you don't need to tell me any Japanese philosophy. Mark Kitto, you have a wife that is Chinese-Japanese, but only has Japanese philosophy.
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1. Jing
  November 16, 2014 at 07:23
  Hi Eugenia Lieu, I can not agree with you. I think if you really live in China for a long time and you will know what Mark is talking about . I'm a girl who grew up in mainland China and got so sick of it.
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Chien
July 9, 2014 at 07:05
Only true American is native American Indian, but they got wiped out in genocide by white man in America, and we celebrate Thanksgiving, at least used to, but now it is not true holiday, but retail sales day. America is land of immigrants, initially, the losers and criminals who could not do well in their own societies. So, Eugenia, nobody has right not to accept you. Once born a Chinese, always a Chinese, unless one rejects being Chinese him/herself, but others will always regard one as Chinese just from ethnicity standpoint, unless one is a banana, or variant thereof, like an Uncle Tom.
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Eugenia Lieu
December 10, 2014 at 00:59
American People welcome Southern People for being aggressive, and they welcome White People for being racists. I've been living here in the United states for 29 years, but they never cared what I say. It's even though the other party who speaks against him/herself would win their rights over mine. I'm thinking about going back to Taiwan. I grew up there, and lived my life for 7 good years. The people are always friendly on the streets.
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Eugenia Lieu
January 29, 2015 at 04:57
As a Chinese, I am not equal with anyone else. I have a coarse-face, and I am genetically segregated with other Chinese.
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Gene
May 24, 2015 at 22:30
Hi Mr. Kitto, I may have missed your points since your article is relatively long. However, below is my take on this subject, and I hope it is not seen as personal to you or to your wonderful family. I felt you have attained your Chinese Dream, and whether you want to go one extra mile to be considered a Chinese may be impossible (at least not in this life-time). You will always be looked upon as an immigrant; you likely speak Mandarin with a British accent...that gave it away; your English physical features (not even close to Xinjiangren) gave it away as well. It won't matter who your spouse is. On the other hand, by marrying a local could help you assimilate, but, may be detrimental. Society is such that cross-racial union are looked at closely. It does not matter where in this World. I know it is silly to say that, considering Ireland just accepted gay-marriages. However, on the sub-surface, two men walking down a street holding hands (or for that matter two women) would still catch the attention of many in this World. The other factor is how you presented yourself in a foreign land. When I was in East Africa, I have had all my photographic equipment stolen...my hotel room was burglarized. The owner of the hotel was probably expecting a fuming Red-Neck. He had his adult son and security manager with him (I guess as a defensive measure...if you want to see that from my perspective). I bet he was pleasantly surprised I neither raised my voice nor pounded my fist. I quietly explained to him what had happened. The owner interrupted informing me he had been briefed earlier by the police and his security manager. He just wanted to meet me face-to-face, and we did over a drink. He then elegantly asked if I care to email him listing the value of equipment lost. I did. A month later the reimbursement money arrived. You see, I am making a point here...it is all about respect. You can say the "Me" culture likely existed to some degree, but, it was a happy ending.
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Brett
July 18, 2015 at 06:41
Wow Mark, very helpful article. I am also dreaming about living in China and owning a business. I do not dream of becoming a trader or anything like that. I just want to bring tradition and culture back to China through the Martial Art that was taken away from China, but the cultural aspect of it is still embeded in it. Unlike modern martial arts that are mostly acrobatic dance. And your article gave me some insights that I will consider. But as I talk to Chinese people, they all think its great idea what I have on my mind, since younger generations now are slowly losing the values that were once theirs. Will be reading more of your articles here. Thanks a lot, Brett http://twilc.com
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Bruce Zhou
August 4, 2015 at 23:08
Get over yourself, the only reason you can't handle China is because you can't handle yourself. Learn about who you are first before attacking a whole country like that. If every Chinese people thinks they way you do, then they would not have emigrated to so many countries in the world, took root, lived and contributed to their new homes. I am sorry, but the world does not revolve around you, and it seems that your problem is that you expect things to happen according to your expectations? You may say you tried to understand and adapt, well, it's obviously you have not worked on yourself but instead suppressed everything you don't like, which had the opposite effect. Sounds like you have actually gotten a lot of benefit from China, yet you actually decide to stab China in the back with this article.
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Jen
November 29, 2016 at 00:24
I agree with Phil Richardson ("From what I read in the article, its a balanced and accurate portrayal of life in China and the attitudes held by the great majority of its citizens. As to the comments, I'm saddened that an opportunity for greater understanding by all concerned"). Seeing these comments makes me wonder, did we even read the same article? This hair-trigger defensiveness when it comes to China has got to stop. I've seen a lot of thoughtful, reasonable articles written by foreigners that get torn apart in the comments. This is hardly "China bashing." Healthy criticism is vital, no matter who writes it.
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